FB: Midwest Conference

[judgetrainer]

I am just spitballing, but athletic recruiting is somewhat symptomatic of admissions as a whole. An institution that has no history of success in a sport is not going to turn around in a year or two. I would present Lawrence as an example. Once upon a time they were a strong football program. They fell WAY behind in recruiting and facilities in the 90s and 00s. After several strong classes this year they ended up with...checks notes...10 first year players. And the bleed that haunts the program is simply awful.  When the Banta Bowl renovation was being considered there was real discussion of discontinuing the program. Football is expensive to operate, and the net student revenue is not exactly the strongest compared to other programs.

Grinnell has never had a conference winner (if I recall correctly). Football is just not their sport. Hoops, sure. Golf, some soccer, swimming, baseball (how do you get 44 baseball players at one time?). I don't know that they can fix this issue for football. Many similar schools in Iowa with stronger programs. Coe or Grinnell? And students go greater distance. Grinnell or Carleton?

We will see over the next half century the loss of a bunch of D3 schools. Grinnell will be safe. Their football program? Not sure at all.

[Pat Coleman]

Pat, please name one distinctly unique difference/disadvantage that Grinnell College has compared to the wide cross section of institutions in DIII football (aside from being among the wealthiest).

Every school, and every admissions department and financial aid office, is different. It's not nearly as homogeneous as you seem to want to make it sound.

[pioneer27]

The admission requirements at Grinnell along with the courses offered at Grinnell are a major issue with this topic.  While most midwest Lib Art colleges in the midwest have recently struggled (especially in Iowa) to fill incoming classes, Grinnell is not struggling due to its ability to bring students from across the country and world.  Most midwest schools are regional, which is an issue due fewer students in these areas compared to past decades.  Grinnell is actually becoming more selective as the admit rate has been decreasing. On paper it is getting harder to get into the school.

Now I have seen many here (I've been lurking for years) say why not just lower the standards to fill a roster.    Sure you could do that, but that is unfair to those students when the could struggle in the classroom if they are not provided the resources to help those students.  For instance Grinnell offers no math course below calculus.   Every single science major requires at least one semester of Calculus.  If a student is admitted to fill a roster slot but does not have the academic background to be successful in the classroom is it fair to admit them, especially when you consider the investment many of those families make to attend Grinnell and any other Liber Arts College for that matter.  Math is just one area this exists, you can see this across the curriculum.   One could argue that Grinnell could invest more resources to offer more courses for students that might not be prepared for these types of courses.    But on the whole the institution does have an incentive to offer lower level courses when it has no issue filling its incoming class with students who are adequately prepared to be successful in those courses. 

It's very complicated.   Many factors institutionally impact the coaches ability to just recruit better.   Grinnell has actually invested heavily into football to deal with the issue of its roster size.   It's a complicated problem, one many are still trying to work out.   Unfortunately this year the season has ended much earlier then anyone wanted it to.   

[WW]

For the record, 1998 Grinnell team was 10-0 and MWC champion. A few years ago, sure, but hardly leather helmet days.

A factoid worth sharing: Grinnell acceptance rate is 20%. Monmouth, 52%; Lawrence, 63%; Ripon, 65%; Beloit, 70%; SNC, 81%.

[blue_jays]

For the record, 1998 Grinnell team was 10-0 and MWC champion. A few years ago, sure, but hardly leather helmet days.

A factoid worth sharing: Grinnell acceptance rate is 20%. Monmouth, 52%; Lawrence, 63%; Ripon, 65%; Beloit, 70%; SNC, 81%.

University of Chicago acceptance rate for this past class: 5.9%. They have right around 100 on the roster.

[scottie]

The selection rates and academic rigor standard does not hold up in this argument.  (Comparing to Grinnell at #14 in US News, National Liberal Arts....)

#1 Williams, Roster of 71, current record 2-1
#2 Amherst, Roster of 76, current record 3-0

Don't make me keep going.... 

[Pat Coleman]

And in the NESCAC they would play fewer games and play no non-conference games and would generally get ground down less, so yeah, maybe they would still be playing.

[gbpuckfan]

Pat, please name one distinctly unique difference/disadvantage that Grinnell College has compared to the wide cross section of institutions in DIII football (aside from being among the wealthiest).

It's in Grinnell, Iowa

I kid, I kid... 

[sncdangler]

And in the NESCAC they would play fewer games and play no non-conference games and would generally get ground down less, so yeah, maybe they would still be playing.

The NESCAC plays nine games. Is one game going to make that big of a difference? If so then Grinnell could schedule one game outside of the league instead of two. I am surprised no one has made comparisons to Macalester yet. For a long time they had low numbers and weren't very good and in their first year in the MWC they won the league. Stands to reason if a school with a similar academic profile such as Macalester can be competitive anyone should be able to.

[WW]

The selection rates and academic rigor standard does not hold up in this argument.  (Comparing to Grinnell at #14 in US News, National Liberal Arts....)

#1 Williams, Roster of 71, current record 2-1
#2 Amherst, Roster of 76, current record 3-0

Don't make me keep going.... 

I'm not making an argument as much as pointing out that Grinnell has a much more limited pool of athletes from which to draw, by choice, compared to their MWC competition. Don't really have a horse in this race. But Grinnell might be 3-0 against a NESCAC schedule right now too. Those teams are awful.

Kudos to Chicago, though. Proving it can be done.

[pioneer27]

Pat, please name one distinctly unique difference/disadvantage that Grinnell College has compared to the wide cross section of institutions in DIII football (aside from being among the wealthiest).

It's in Grinnell, Iowa

I kid, I kid... 

It is true though.   One of the top reasons admitted students decide not to come

[formerd3db]

Like WW, my comments are presented as an outsider for the Grinnell discussion.  The suspension of the program for the remainder of the year was a disappointing occurrence, however, in reality it was the right decision for now, IMO, simply regarding the safety issues with only 28 healthy players on the roster.

Another poster (not on this board) made the statement (obviously his opinion, just like all the other posters here, including me) that not every school needs to have (i.e. should have) a football program.  I disagree with that premise, although, admittedly, am biased.  We've had that argument/discussion before with the Swarthmore debacle nearly 20 years ago.  Certainly, if a college/university administration and alumni decide they do not want a football program, that is their prerogative.  Yet, there is no reason that a football program cannot be sustained, regardless of a college's/university's financial, academic, admissions, economic policies/philosophies, etc., etc., which vary widely among the DIII schools as several posters have pointed out here already.  If a school truly believes in the reasons for the program, there are ways/means to make it happen and we've seen many examples of that having been successfully done in DIII (and even in other NCAA divisions as well, of course, in which the demographics and philosophies are widely different than at our DIII.) 

The bottom line as we all know is that the administration and alumni need to be committed to the cause.  We all agree as to the benefits of the intercollegiate athletic programs (and other collegiate non-athletic organizations and programs) and if some groups are afforded that privilege, the others should be as well. Where there's a will, there's a way.  Let's hope that Grinnell (and Earlham and Occidental) doesn't go the misguided Hutchins way of the "old" University of Chicago or the Swarthmore, Menlo and others.  That would be a shame.  Hopefully, honestly committed groups of alumni and administrators will be able to sincerely look at re-organizational plan options for next year. I am rooting for them/for you Grinnell supporters here.       

[fulbakdad]

A couple other points.  Scotty listed the roster sizes of a couple NESCAC teams.  Those are roster limit rosters.  They would actually have more players if they weren't limited.  And while I will say that the NESCAC teams are not top 25, the top half of the league plays pretty good football.  (Yes Pat, I actually said that).

I will also bring up Lake Forest because of my experience with them.  LFC's roster was 61 my sons freshman year, 2011.  Look backwards in the year end results and you will see a bottom feeder program.  The interim Head Coach was a VERY good recruiter (Now the Head Coach).  After a couple years of his recruiting we were MWC Co-Champs.  Now after steady hard recruiting and steady season results, bingo, roster of 100.

[Mr. Ypsi]

A couple other points.  Scotty listed the roster sizes of a couple NESCAC teams.  Those are roster limit rosters.  They would actually have more players if they weren't limited.  And while I will say that the NESCAC teams are not top 25, the top half of the league plays pretty good football.  (Yes Pat, I actually said that).

I will also bring up Lake Forest because of my experience with them.  LFC's roster was 61 my sons freshman year, 2011.  Look backwards in the year end results and you will see a bottom feeder program.  The interim Head Coach was a VERY good recruiter (Now the Head Coach).  After a couple years of his recruiting we were MWC Co-Champs.  Now after steady hard recruiting and steady season results, bingo, roster of 100.

Alas, since they (NESCAC) refuse to join the playoffs, or even have ANY OOC games, we may never know.  Based on their national success in most other sports, I suspect that their football teams are pretty damned competitive (or at least would be, if allowed to compete for a couple of years).  Top 25?  Who the hell knows?

[scottie]

In lieu of recent events, the 2019 Most Valuable Performer trophy should be engraved today.  Congratulations Beloit training staff!!!  Somewhere, The Roop is smiling.