FB: Midwest Conference

[bleedpurple]

My proposal is to create a D4 for any school who wants to whine about facilities, enrollment, and the success of other D3 schools. Instead of trying to get better and compete, they can move down to D4, play each other, and tell themselves it means something.

[Warhawk 96]

How about you guys just stop playing football and then put all of that money into your forensics team? This argument is a moot one and utterly ridiculous just like the majority of things that are discussed in a debate match. It seems that upon recieving your degree everyone has an additional minor in skewing statistics.

[fightintitan2006]

Sorry sncOLDdad, I have fixed my previous post, my apologies

How about you guys just stop playing football and then put all of that money into your forensics team? This argument is a moot one and utterly ridiculous just like the majority of things that are discussed in a debate match. It seems that upon receiving your degree everyone has an additional minor in skewing statistics.

I'll stick with my argument that with lower tuition, lower academic standards and thousands of more accepted students per the Division III average, Whitewater and the likes would soon be dominating forensics as well, regardless of the resources the other schools put in 

I also believe there are advantages to being state funded and not as driven by tuition, but I realize that street can go both ways and in this economy, everyone (but Grinnell) is hurting.

I wouldn't say it is a moot point, considering a Division III split was up for conversation by the NCAA last year. I don't know all the reasons behind it, but have to imagine this was a part of it, whether on the table or in secret.

What statistics have been skewed?

[fightintitan2006]

My proposal is to create a D4 for any school who wants to whine about facilities, enrollment, and the success of other D3 schools. Instead of trying to get better and compete, they can move down to D4, play each other, and tell themselves it means something.

One could argue that Whitewater could play in a division with the other Division III schools that are in the same mold (large, public), beat those 10 to 20 schools and tell themselves it means something.

The principal of my argument isn't football specific, but using football as an example: if there were a Division III split and Mount Union and won a D4 that included MWC schools 100 years in a row you wouldn't hear a complaint from me. Looking at the total package, Mt. Union's blueprint is similar to that of the MWC schools (as well as IIAC, CCIW, MIAC, etc.). UWW's blueprint appears to be much more similar to a Division II or Division I-AA school.

BTW, Robert Frost didn't say that, at least not like that he didn't

[Mr. Ypsi]

My proposal is to create a D4 for any school who wants to whine about facilities, enrollment, and the success of other D3 schools. Instead of trying to get better and compete, they can move down to D4, play each other, and tell themselves it means something.

One could argue that Whitewater could play in a division with the other Division III schools that are in the same mold (large, public), beat those 10 to 20 schools and tell themselves it means something.

The principal of my argument isn't football specific, but using football as an example: if there were a Division III split and Mount Union and won a D4 that included MWC schools 100 years in a row you wouldn't hear a complaint from me. Looking at the total package, Mt. Union's blueprint is similar to that of the MWC schools (as well as IIAC, CCIW, MIAC, etc.). UWW's blueprint appears to be much more similar to a Division II or Division I-AA school.

BTW, Robert Frost didn't say that, at least not like that he didn't

The East Region alone has 20 public schools.  In these economic times, public is NOT necessarily an advantage.

BTW, I'm a fan of one of the conferences you mentioned (CCIW).  We'd rather overcome MUC and UWW than simply avoid them.  Augustana won four straight titles in the 1980s (something even MUC has never managed) - we eventually caught them; we'll catch MUC and UWW (someday!).  If you're not willing to try, there's always intramurals.

[Warhawk 96]

Sorry sncOLDdad, I have fixed my previous post, my apologies

How about you guys just stop playing football and then put all of that money into your forensics team? This argument is a moot one and utterly ridiculous just like the majority of things that are discussed in a debate match. It seems that upon receiving your degree everyone has an additional minor in skewing statistics.

I'll stick with my argument that with lower tuition, lower academic standards and thousands of more accepted students per the Division III average, Whitewater and the likes would soon be dominating forensics as well, regardless of the resources the other schools put in 

I also believe there are advantages to being state funded and not as driven by tuition, but I realize that street can go both ways and in this economy, everyone (but Grinnell) is hurting.

I wouldn't say it is a moot point, considering a Division III split was up for conversation by the NCAA last year. I don't know all the reasons behind it, but have to imagine this was a part of it, whether on the table or in secret.

What statistics have been skewed?

The remarks about the WIAC being represented with four of the top 25 spots in pretty much every sport is a statistic that has been manipulated to serve the point you are making. If large public non-scholarship schools should not be competing with the likes of smaller, "more academically gifted " schools then why are these supposed athleticallty inferrior schools able to compete? Top 25 is nothing to call home about. Even you know that being in the top 25 for a spot that only one person gets is about as useful as a used staple. Even then it's only a ranking based on an arbitrary set of criteria.

All that matters are championships and for a long time they were few and far between in the WIAC. Now that we are starting to have a bit of success this argument surfaces it's head again. The reason I call it a moot one because even if you create another division there will still be a million excuses on why the winner won and a lot of fingerpointing instead of gutchecking. If you don't win in division 4 then what? Create a division 5? To me, the whining is a nuisance and if the smaller, more exclusive schools really cared about sports they would make a bigger committment to it instead of running to play pop warner teams to feel good about themselves. Go ahead and pat yourselves on the back for the exclusivity of your college, but take the lumps associated with it. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

[Warhawk 96]

My proposal is to create a D4 for any school who wants to whine about facilities, enrollment, and the success of other D3 schools. Instead of trying to get better and compete, they can move down to D4, play each other, and tell themselves it means something.

One could argue that Whitewater could play in a division with the other Division III schools that are in the same mold (large, public), beat those 10 to 20 schools and tell themselves it means something.

The principal of my argument isn't football specific, but using football as an example: if there were a Division III split and Mount Union and won a D4 that included MWC schools 100 years in a row you wouldn't hear a complaint from me. Looking at the total package, Mt. Union's blueprint is similar to that of the MWC schools (as well as IIAC, CCIW, MIAC, etc.). UWW's blueprint appears to be much more similar to a Division II or Division I-AA school.

BTW, Robert Frost didn't say that, at least not like that he didn't

The East Region alone has 20 public schools.  In these economic times, public is NOT necessarily an advantage.

BTW, I'm a fan of one of the conferences you mentioned (CCIW).  We'd rather overcome MUC and UWW than simply avoid them.  Augustana won four straight titles in the 1980s (something even MUC has never managed) - we eventually caught them; we'll catch MUC and UWW (someday!).  If you're not willing to try, there's always intramurals.

I applaud your spirit.

[BoBo]

Sorry sncOLDdad, I have fixed my previous post, my apologies

How about you guys just stop playing football and then put all of that money into your forensics team? This argument is a moot one and utterly ridiculous just like the majority of things that are discussed in a debate match. It seems that upon receiving your degree everyone has an additional minor in skewing statistics.

I'll stick with my argument that with lower tuition, lower academic standards and thousands of more accepted students per the Division III average, Whitewater and the likes would soon be dominating forensics as well, regardless of the resources the other schools put in 

I also believe there are advantages to being state funded and not as driven by tuition, but I realize that street can go both ways and in this economy, everyone (but Grinnell) is hurting.

I wouldn't say it is a moot point, considering a Division III split was up for conversation by the NCAA last year. I don't know all the reasons behind it, but have to imagine this was a part of it, whether on the table or in secret.

What statistics have been skewed?

The remarks about the WIAC being represented with four of the top 25 spots in pretty much every sport is a statistic that has been manipulated to serve the point you are making. If large public non-scholarship schools should not be competing with the likes of smaller, "more academically gifted " schools then why are these supposed athleticallty inferrior schools able to compete? Top 25 is nothing to call home about. Even you know that being in the top 25 for a spot that only one person gets is about as useful as a used staple. Even then it's only a ranking based on an arbitrary set of criteria.

All that matters are championships and for a long time they were few and far between in the WIAC. Now that we are starting to have a bit of success this argument surfaces it's head again. The reason I call it a moot one because even if you create another division there will still be a million excuses on why the winner won and a lot of fingerpointing instead of gutchecking. If you don't win in division 4 then what? Create a division 5? To me, the whining is a nuisance and if the smaller, more exclusive schools really cared about sports they would make a bigger committment to it instead of running to play pop warner teams to feel good about themselves. Go ahead and pat yourselves on the back for the exclusivity of your college, but take the lumps associated with it. Can't have your cake and eat it too.

That large, eastern, public school called Williams College (oh, wait they're not large or public  ), will have to go the same way as the WIAC and others like them because they year-in, year-out win the all sports trophy competitions.  How could they dominate sports every year in a landscape supposedly dominated only by the large publics?

[The Roop]

Not surprisingly, you make no sense here. How do you feel about Kenyon swimming, then?

Swimming doesn't have a board so I can't keep up with.

[fightintitan2006]

The East Region alone has 20 public schools.  In these economic times, public is NOT necessarily an advantage.

BTW, I'm a fan of one of the conferences you mentioned (CCIW).  We'd rather overcome MUC and UWW than simply avoid them.  Augustana won four straight titles in the 1980s (something even MUC has never managed) - we eventually caught them; we'll catch MUC and UWW (someday!).  If you're not willing to try, there's always intramurals.

Mr. Ypsi,

As I hinted at in my previous post, I agree completely and won't say that, in these times, there is any advantage to being a public university. I do have to take homage with the line I bolded above though. I respect your fandom, but unless you actually have a voice on behalf of the CCIW or a CCIW school (which you very well may have) in the event of a division III split or similar event, I don't think you can say you would rather overcome UWW. Coaches, ADs and presidents can posture and use as many clichés as they want (my personal favorite overused cliché is to be the best you have to beat the best), but I would bet that any CCIW coach would run to cast a vote that resulted in the WIACs departure from DIII.

[Mr. Ypsi]

ft2006,

I can't say for football (and to a degree the CCIW teams do seem to avoid WIAC opponents), but definitely untrue in basketball.  We not only play them in quite a few non-con games, but for the last 3-4 seasons I think the CCIW has out-ranked them (usually 1 over 2, though last season probably 2 over 3, with the UAA out-ranking us both).

As to other sports, there is a lot of inter-league competition and (while I don't follow it closely) I sense no feelings of inferiority.  And remember that (aside from "grandfathered" exceptions like Johns Hopkins lacrosse) ALL athletic programs at a school have to be in the same NCAA division.  UWW and MUC may dominate in football, but (especially for MUC) their other sports are NOT dominant, even in d3.

I'm also a Titan (IWU division ), but have no connections to any CCIW athletic program (I'm a retired Eastern Michigan U prof).

[SNCOLDAD]

fightintitan, thanks for clearing that up. I just saw your edit and now I understand. And, to be honest, I was hoping that is what you meant. This topic came up today at a family gathering that half were from Illinois and half were from Wisconsin. 2 of the couples presently have sons at SNC but the other either have a son in school local or children that did attend a Wisconsin school in the past, both D3 and even D1 Madison. It was brought up by one that they were not sure but thought it was Stevens Point that was looking at going D2, but found out they could not afford it. The deal being they would have to be D2 in all sports they support. They could not afford the number of scholarships that would bring to light. I am sure the major extra travel would not help the budget either.

DO I think there should be a D4? nope. The one that brought that up has not posted since so no comment on that. If I had a son that played basketball at Grinnell I probably would feel a lot different about size of school and going up against schools with 10 times the student population. But my son plays football. I have every right to feel the way I do about the UWW's of D3 football. Just as those opposing my opinion have every right to feel the way they do.    Has UWW built a great school? As far as I know it is. I am not trying to change all of these things. But I do look at it a little different I guess. I am an optimist that believes the playing field should be equal as possible for all. It is not. But I am open to others opinions. For instance, shouldn't all D3 schools be allowed to have Spring football? My understanding this is up to the conference to set guidelines on this. I assume there are D3 rules for this but they do not set up what schools are or are not allowed Spring football. But I have also had my eyes opened that this is also a selling point for some programs. This allows the student athlete to study abroad in the spring semester knowing he is not missing practices.


My point is this. I do not like the substantial size differences in D3 schools. I do feel that overall this gives an unfair advantage in almost all team sports. But I am open to others opinions.


I do also have a question. How does Hockey fit into this whole thing? Can't a school be D3 in every other sport be D1 in Hockey? 

[Mr. Ypsi]

SNCOLDAD,

There are a couple who have been "grandfathered", but no schools from here on can be different divisions for different sports.

[SNCOLDAD]

So Mr. Y,
So is Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech grandfathered for Hockey?

[Mr. Ypsi]

So Mr. Y,
So is Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech grandfathered for Hockey?

I don't know specifically, but presumably.  (As are d3 schools like Colorado College.)