FB: Midwest Conference

[gbpuckfan]

And the WIAC... for comparison

#3 - UW Eau Claire
#10 - UW La Crosse
#12 - UW Stout
#69 - UW River Falls
#154 - UW Stevens Point
#156 - UW Platteville
#183 - UW Oshkosh
#210 - UW Whitewater


Obviously UWW can't play itself, so that drops it a bit in comparison to others. UWEC played St. Thomas, St. John's and Wheaton ...

[scottie]

I think The Good Guys got up to #8 in the rankings several years ago, and regularly were making the lower end of the top 25 during other MWC championship seasons. Years earlier, they made a clear decision to schedule much better competition (albeit not the best....kudos, dangler and puckfan).  Bottom line: It takes a few years to get on the national radar and the voters aren't quite so impressed with one-hit wonders.  In my scottieopinion, by this point in the season, The U should probably eek out at least one vote somewhere in the "others receiving" category. But I'm not surprised at the snub thus far.   

[AO]

Do any MWC fans that would like to see top 25 votes think Carroll is better than St. Thomas?  If we go by Massey Ratings, Carroll is ranked 64th just ahead of UW-La Crosse at 65th.  St. Thomas beat La Crosse 46-0.

[scottie]

Hey AO - Try cutting the Prozacs in half!  Carroll receiving one (1) top 25 vote would not mean they are better than the mighty Tommies, who currently have 11 votes after getting knocked out of the rankings.  Okay?  Take a deep breath and calm down....  There, that's better.  (BTW, I saw your campus and stadium a few weeks ago.....awesome!)

I took the liberty of researching the bottom four vote getters in the D3Football rankings, since we're on that site...., looking at their W-L records & who any losses were to, and whether or not Carroll has a case to receive their vote:

Franklin (3 votes): 6-2. Losses to #1 UWW, and to Illinois Wesleyan (3-4).  The UWW game, while impressive on the schedule, was a 42-13 blowout.  They hung with IWU, 42-35, but IWU is terrible....absolutely terrible!  Yes.

Heidelberg (2 votes): Losses to #7 John Carroll and #3 Mount Union.  Nope.

Muhlenberg (1 vote):  6-1.  Loss to #9 John's Hopkins (7-0).  Nope.

Ithaca (1 vote): Losses to Buffalo State (5-2) and Frostburg State (3-5).  Yes.
   

[scottyeagle93]

Those strength of schedule ratings, in my opinion, are a relatively poor indicator of how strong one's schedule actually is.  Looking at Ripon's schedule, for example, its strength is aided by the fact that they have played an undefeated Saint Scholastica, an undefeated Carroll, and a one-loss Macalester.  None of those teams have played a difficult schedule by any stretch of the imagination.  To contrast, Macalester's strength of schedule takes a hit because of - well, pretty much everyone, but it seems silly to hold the records of Carleton and Hamline against them because they play in the MIAC, an undeniably tougher conference than the MWC.  Additionally, they can't control who they play in-conference; if they happened to be paired with the two worst teams in the south division, so be it.  I realize there isn't a good alternative to strength of schedule beyond opponents' win-loss, but these ratings really need to be taken with a grain of salt. 

[grboob]

Maybe the solution regarding ranking is for Carroll fans to just ignore the DIII top 25 rankings and just follow the AFCA top 25 rankings.

Then, get the MWC automatic Playoff bid and proof it on the field.

[gbpuckfan]

  I realize there isn't a good alternative to strength of schedule beyond opponents' win-loss, but these ratings really need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Some strength of schedule formulas include opponents' opponents record... that adds another layer

But point well made

[AO]

Hey AO - Try cutting the Prozacs in half!  Carroll receiving one (1) top 25 vote would not mean they are better than the mighty Tommies, who currently have 11 votes after getting knocked out of the rankings.  Okay?  Take a deep breath and calm down....  There, that's better.  (BTW, I saw your campus and stadium a few weeks ago.....awesome!)

I took the liberty of researching the bottom four vote getters in the D3Football rankings, since we're on that site...., looking at their W-L records & who any losses were to, and whether or not Carroll has a case to receive their vote:

Franklin (3 votes): 6-2. Losses to #1 UWW, and to Illinois Wesleyan (3-4).  The UWW game, while impressive on the schedule, was a 42-13 blowout.  They hung with IWU, 42-35, but IWU is terrible....absolutely terrible!  Yes.

Heidelberg (2 votes): Losses to #7 John Carroll and #3 Mount Union.  Nope.

Muhlenberg (1 vote):  6-1.  Loss to #9 John's Hopkins (7-0).  Nope.

Ithaca (1 vote): Losses to Buffalo State (5-2) and Frostburg State (3-5).  Yes.

  Here are some smiley faces to let you know that I'm not upset.

I think it's an honest question.  Maybe you all would put St. Thomas much higher in the rankings than Carroll and just kick out some other teams.  Just making a point of how good you have to be to make the top 25 out of 244 teams.  Making the top 100 is a big achievement for Carroll.

[02 Warhawk]

A perfect example of a team worthy of getting ranked in the top 25, while playing in a weak conference is Franklin. This is a successful team that rarely wins their non-conference games (which are always against tough programs), but breeze through a relatively weak conference schedule. Then they enter the playoffs, which they hardly ever get out of the second round.

It was in 2006 when Franklin first started playing at a high level in the HCAC, but they never cracked the top 25 until week 9....the following year! So history tells us that in order for "new" dominate teams (that play in a weak conference) to get top 25 respect, they almost have to wait a year to get noticed....while replicating their success from the previous year.

In Carroll's case, if they can do it again next season then they will start receiving the votes they've been looking for. It doesn't hurt to win a playoff game this year either  . As well as scheduling tougher teams, even though there's a good chance Carroll might lose them (which would be more beneficial in the long run).

Edit: As much as we would like to believe the top 25 is based on current data...there is an element of historical consideration as well.

[MasterJedi]

A perfect example of a team worthy of getting ranked in the top 25, while playing in a weak conference is Franklin. This is a successful team that rarely wins their non-conference games (which are always against tough programs), but breeze through a relatively weak conference schedule. Then they enter the playoffs, which they hardly ever get out of the second round.

It was in 2006 when Franklin first started playing at a high level in the HCAC, but they never cracked the top 25 until week 9....the following year! So history tells us that in order for "new" dominate teams (that play in a weak conference) to get top 25 respect, they almost have to wait a year to get noticed....while replicating their success from the previous year.

In Carroll's case, if they can do it again next season then they will start receiving the votes they've been looking for. It doesn't hurt to win a playoff game this year either  . As well as scheduling tougher teams, even though there's a good chance Carroll might lose them (which would be more beneficial in the long run).

Edit: As much as we would like to believe the top 25 is based on current data...there is an element of historical consideration as well.

Not meaning to pick on you 02 but this is the fourth instance I've seen of this today (not just on this site) so we need some internet wide class.

Dominant= a team is dominant, they keep winning their conference, nobody can stop them and they are always on top for a long period.
Dominate= UMU and UMHB continually go out and dominate teams, winning by 50+ margins or, their defensive line just dominated the opposing offensive line.

Just a little pet peeve, I'm all good now. 

[hazzben]

I instead would rather discuss the lack of national recognition for the Pioneers/Midwest Conference.  While I think that the blame for this can be spread around to several different recipients, I think that absolutely zero recognition is ridiculous. 

First, I am aware that the Conference is not an A-1 top tier league.  In fact, Carroll is so aware that they have decided to leave (and will probably feel the pain of that for some time while they try to ramp up to compete with the big boys).  That said, this conference is not a total dog either.  Schools like SNC and Monmouth have great traditions of winning with excellent student athletes on their roster.  Furthermore, the recent resurgence of the programs at IC and LFC (this year has been a disappointment I know, but that program is headed in the right direction for the long team after their amazing run to a league title last year) should get a bit more credit than it does.  Nobody in the world thinks that this Conference's champion is ready to hang with the likes of Whitewater and Mt. Union, but the fact that there is absolutely zero credit given I feel is a bit outrageous. This is an automatic-bid conference who sends a winner to the NCAA tournament.  That isn't just a throw-away.   I am in agreement that non-conference scheduling could be better, but its not the easiest thing in the world to schedule a bunch of top-tier talent to start a season (especially if your program is a bit of a nation unknown itself). 

Which brings me to my second gripe with Carroll receiving no love nationally (I would like to state for the record that I am not even sure if they are a top 25 team, but I do think that they should have at least one "others receiving votes" by now).  One of my major problems with the lack of recognition is not just because they are 7-0, but because of the dominant numbers they are putting up.  1st, Carroll is amongst the tops in Div. III in total defense and points allowed.  It has been a dominant season on the defensive side of the ball and their numbers put them at the top of the nation.  2nd, the same can be said for the seasons that LaMont and Burlingame are putting up.  Each of these guys are putting up numbers that compete league wide on a week-in and week-out basis.  It is a shame that it is being ignored.  Finally, the special teams scoring this season has been pretty amazing.  Returns for touchdowns have been abundant, but it goes by the wayside.  All-in-all, I think that these numbers being kicked to the curb is an injustice and should at least be worthy of  "others receiving votes" recognition.   

Better non-con games (and being competitive in them), sustained success, beating top 25 teams (and those receiving votes) and especially, playing well in the playoffs, will all produce these effects.

As for the stats argument, the numbers are greatly diminished because of the competition Carroll has faced (that's not meant as a slam). If those stats were being put up in the WIAC, MIAC, CCIW or E8 they would be considerably more substantial. Yes, Carroll has been dominant defensively, but it's coming against teams that any Top 50 D would dominate.

To give you a concrete example. Last year St. Scholastica played Bethel in the first round. Statistically, you'd have said the game should be pretty even. Probably even advantage CSS. They had incredible D stats, yds/play offensively, QB rating and scoring O/D. But those numbers came against really poor competition. CSS had been unbeaten in the regular season for several years, but was getting no love 'nationally' in terms of Top 25 votes.

The reason they were getting no love is because, despite their immaculate regular season records and ridiculous stats, they had no history of being good, and then a history of getting double monkey stomped in the playoffs.

Bethel beat CSS 70-13, and it could have been worse.

This season, Carroll needs to do well in the games that have some sort of measurable tie in to better teams. Aka, destroy a team like Macalester. Mac lost 23-13 to Hamline, the 2nd worst team in the MIAC. Here's what Top 25ish MIAC teams did to Hamline:

GAC 48-19   
SJU 49-28
BU  38-14   
UST 62-24   
C-M 42-7

More importantly, win out and prove respectable on the national stage. Then, go out next year and prove it wasn't a fluke.

Or, as a short cut, win out the regular season and win a 1st round playoff game. That will all but guarantee that Carroll is ranked in the only poll that really matters, the final one!

[fulbakdad]

I have only been on this board for 4-5 years now.  Obviously not an expert like many who post.  But because I have been following a lot of the teams in the Northeast prior to coming here and have been following the MWC very closely since my boy has been playing here, I feel I have some exposure to more than many who post in the MWC board.  Not saying I'm more knowledgeable, just seen more of a variety of teams from different leagues.  We are nowhere near the level of play in the Liberty League or Empire 8. 

That being said, I have always had a problem with the D3 top 25 lists.  Not the actual top 20 or so teams that seem to hang around up there, but when you go from 20 down to the teams receiving votes.  Gieger, you being a lawyer could probably argue a decent case if you ever brought it before a judge, that there is discrimination keeping some out of that club.  Watching teams in the lower grouping I've seen every year at least one team, if not 2 getting votes from the NESCAC.  As much as I enjoy getting a rise out of a reader or two when I post my disdain, I feel I have grounds to bitch when they are on that list and MWC teams are left off.  We play out of conference (most of us) and send a team to compete in the tournament.  NESCAC plays an 8 game season never leaving their back yard.  Last year, Trinity was on the bubble of cracking the top 25 a couple weeks.  Ludicrous I say! lol

Now Gieger, I also have to say I don't think Carroll is up to that level yet either.  From what I've seen of teams actually making a wave in the playoffs, you need to have a balanced offense with a killer defense.  Your offense is made up of a back that has shown to have off days.  Your passing attack isn't worrying to many D coordinators getting ready for the second season.  Taking that into consideration, you are one injury or bad game away from being stuck in neutral.  IMHO anyways.  The other two teams that are going to compete for the playoff spot are Monmouth and IC.  Monmouth has a very good tandem running back set, but I don't think their QB is at a level to bring them anywhere yet either.  And Bates at IC is the QB that could cause a lot of problems, but I don't think their running game is good enough right now and how healthy are their top receivers?  Am I the only one who thinks the MWC is actually pretty weak this year?

I really don't think that we deserve a top 25 ranking right now.  Again IMHO.  To be honest, I really don't see who is at the top spot after the next 3 games.  I'm not sold Carroll wins the last game....

[fulbakdad]

And Pat,

I won't be on much longer, my son's last game is in 3 weeks.  Hope not to turn blue then.

[scottie]

I think my last post got yanked off the site.  What???

[Pat Coleman]

I think my last post got yanked off the site.  What???

I haven't deleted any posts from anyone in a few weeks. If you have questions about your most recent posts, here's the list:
http://www.d3boards.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;u=541

Maybe the solution regarding ranking is for Carroll fans to just ignore the DIII top 25 rankings and just follow the AFCA top 25 rankings.

They might rank MWC teams but that doesn't make it accurate. One of my favorite examples of this was the year I cited earlier when St. Norbert was ranked higher than its first-round playoff opponent in the AFCA poll, and was ranked lower than its first-round opponent in our poll. And the team ranked higher in our poll won the game, of course.