FB: Midwest Conference

[scottie]

I assume there are D3 rules for this but they do not set up what schools are or are not allowed Spring football. But I have also had my eyes opened that this is also a selling point for some programs. This allows the student athlete to study abroad in the spring semester knowing he is not missing practices.

An additional "selling point" of DIII schools is that athletes can consider participation in multiple sports.  A football player might be a natural in track & field for example.  Or, a football player might wish to participate in a winter sport - as does the MWC offensive POY.  In either case, spring football would hinder such an opportunity, or at least be very impractical.  Schools with larger enrollments may have the flexibility of allowing (or forcing) their student-athletes to specialize.  Smaller schools do not.   

[BoBo]

I assume there are D3 rules for this but they do not set up what schools are or are not allowed Spring football. But I have also had my eyes opened that this is also a selling point for some programs. This allows the student athlete to study abroad in the spring semester knowing he is not missing practices.

An additional "selling point" of DIII schools is that athletes can consider participation in multiple sports.  A football player might be a natural in track & field for example.  Or, a football player might wish to participate in a winter sport - as does the MWC offensive POY.  In either case, spring football would hinder such an opportunity, or at least be very impractical.  Schools with larger enrollments may have the flexibility of allowing (or forcing) their student-athletes to specialize.  Smaller schools do not.   

Jeff Donovan, UWW's starting QB you saw today in the Stagg Bowl, is also the first basemen on the Warhawk baseball team that finished 3rd in the D3 World Series last spring.  He doesn't participate in spring football drills.  Maybe you saw this the other day on the Road to Salem feature.

[hickory_cornhusker]

So Mr. Y,
So is Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech grandfathered for Hockey?

I don't know specifically, but presumably.  (As are d3 schools like Colorado College.)

Northern Michigan and Michigan Tech have been in D1 long enough to be grandfathered in but I think 9don't know this for sure) D2 schools are allowed to play D1 hockey because the NCAA doesn't sponsor a D2 championship.

[scottie]

I assume there are D3 rules for this but they do not set up what schools are or are not allowed Spring football. But I have also had my eyes opened that this is also a selling point for some programs. This allows the student athlete to study abroad in the spring semester knowing he is not missing practices.

An additional "selling point" of DIII schools is that athletes can consider participation in multiple sports.  A football player might be a natural in track & field for example.  Or, a football player might wish to participate in a winter sport - as does the MWC offensive POY.  In either case, spring football would hinder such an opportunity, or at least be very impractical.  Schools with larger enrollments may have the flexibility of allowing (or forcing) their student-athletes to specialize.  Smaller schools do not.   

Jeff Donovan, UWW's starting QB you saw today in the Stagg Bowl, is also the first basemen on the Warhawk baseball team that finished 3rd in the D3 World Series last spring.  He doesn't participate in spring football drills.  Maybe you saw this the other day on the Road to Salem feature.

Yeah, I did see it.  The fact that it was a Road to Salem feature almost implies that it is unique.  Is Donovan the norm at UWW or the exception to the rule??

[hickory_cornhusker]

I assume there are D3 rules for this but they do not set up what schools are or are not allowed Spring football. But I have also had my eyes opened that this is also a selling point for some programs. This allows the student athlete to study abroad in the spring semester knowing he is not missing practices.

An additional "selling point" of DIII schools is that athletes can consider participation in multiple sports.  A football player might be a natural in track & field for example.  Or, a football player might wish to participate in a winter sport - as does the MWC offensive POY.  In either case, spring football would hinder such an opportunity, or at least be very impractical.  Schools with larger enrollments may have the flexibility of allowing (or forcing) their student-athletes to specialize.  Smaller schools do not.   

Jeff Donovan, UWW's starting QB you saw today in the Stagg Bowl, is also the first basemen on the Warhawk baseball team that finished 3rd in the D3 World Series last spring.  He doesn't participate in spring football drills.  Maybe you saw this the other day on the Road to Salem feature.

Yeah, I did see it.  The fact that it was a Road to Salem feature almost implies that it is unique.  Is Donovan the norm at UWW or the exception to the rule??

I don't know, I know Derek Stanley was also on the track team when he was at Whitewater.

[Klopenhiemer]

Spring football is overrated. Just run around in shorts and learn some formations and stuff like that. The only ones who might get any good from it would be in coming freshmen, and they aren't there.

There are quite a few two sport athletes in the WIAC. It certainly isn't discouraged. I know from my sons contemplating it, it was more about losing the study time than anything else.

As for enrollement and d3 sports, I just don't see an advantage. I'm sure WIAC coaches would love to have a football roster the size of SNC's. They are limited by conference rule to 100 maximum. The enrollement could be fifty thousand, and they still could only have 100 players.

How does the WIAC handle this?  Do they cut kids during camp and invite them to try out again next year?  Do they have a practice squad were kids who do not make the 100 man roster serve as scout team players?  Obviously this does not effect how good the teams in the WIAC are, but how do they sell this to kids who might fear getting cut?

[BoBo]

Spring football is overrated. Just run around in shorts and learn some formations and stuff like that. The only ones who might get any good from it would be in coming freshmen, and they aren't there.

There are quite a few two sport athletes in the WIAC. It certainly isn't discouraged. I know from my sons contemplating it, it was more about losing the study time than anything else.

As for enrollement and d3 sports, I just don't see an advantage. I'm sure WIAC coaches would love to have a football roster the size of SNC's. They are limited by conference rule to 100 maximum. The enrollement could be fifty thousand, and they still could only have 100 players.

How does the WIAC handle this?  Do they cut kids during camp and invite them to try out again next year?  Do they have a practice squad were kids who do not make the 100 man roster serve as scout team players?  Obviously this does not effect how good the teams in the WIAC are, but how do they sell this to kids who might fear getting cut?

Klopenhiemer - if I may get a jump on this, the number of student-athletes permitted to participate (practice or competition) in football in the WIAC is limited to 100 - there are no special practice or scout team squads in addition to that 100 player roster.  Travel squad size is limited to a maximum of 60 players for conference and non-conference games. Any student-athlete appearing on the institution's eligibility list must count toward the travel limit. The host institution can dress an unlimited number of players, up to that 100 player limit.

I  have no knowledge how each school handles cuts, but they all obviously cut players during camp, providing they have more than 100 players in camp. Without looking at any guidelines, if a cut player get invited back in following year(s) to compete for a roster spot, might be the decision by the individual schools and not a uniform policy among all the schools. Someone could transfer to another school in order to get a shot to play, I suppose, anything's possible.  Having never been recruited to play football at a WIAC member institution, again, I would speculate that the coaching staff would have to be very selective who they'd like to bring in and compete for a roster position based on what they have returning - I think they have a harder job doing this than a school with an unlimited roster accepting just about any warm, breathing, up-right walking body who wants to play football. 

The fear of getting cut is an interesting situation.  Some might say that if you fear getting cut, maybe you ought to try something else.  Others might say, with a strong work ethic and a lot of sweat and tears, you might win yourself a roster spot. A Wisconsin trait is the latter...Barry Alverez was great at taking marginal D1 prospects as walk on's, especially from small high schools in Wisconsin and turning them into very good players, some even becoming All-Big Ten and All-American's.  I think a lot of kids in Wisconsin realize that it is possible to make yourself into a good football player if you're willing to grind it out.  I think every team needs more than just a few of them to go along with a few stars.  Makes being part of a special team all the better.  What do you think?

[UWWFan]

I assume there are D3 rules for this but they do not set up what schools are or are not allowed Spring football. But I have also had my eyes opened that this is also a selling point for some programs. This allows the student athlete to study abroad in the spring semester knowing he is not missing practices.

An additional "selling point" of DIII schools is that athletes can consider participation in multiple sports.  A football player might be a natural in track & field for example.  Or, a football player might wish to participate in a winter sport - as does the MWC offensive POY.  In either case, spring football would hinder such an opportunity, or at least be very impractical.  Schools with larger enrollments may have the flexibility of allowing (or forcing) their student-athletes to specialize.  Smaller schools do not.   

Jeff Donovan, UWW's starting QB you saw today in the Stagg Bowl, is also the first basemen on the Warhawk baseball team that finished 3rd in the D3 World Series last spring.  He doesn't participate in spring football drills.  Maybe you saw this the other day on the Road to Salem feature.

Yeah, I did see it.  The fact that it was a Road to Salem feature almost implies that it is unique.  Is Donovan the norm at UWW or the exception to the rule??

I know there are (at least were, when I was a little closer to the team) a good number of student-athletes who participate in two sports. Mostly just track as the second sport, but some others as well. I also have a few friends who were recruited to UWW to do two sports (One FB and Basketball, another Football and Baseball). To be honest, I know Coach Vodenlich (baseball) does not particularily enjoy having two sport athletes (I'd prefer not to go into details, but I do know this), so in this case Donovan is the exception. I know Stanley, Alex Thompson, Lance Douglas all did Track and Field (I know I'm missing a few).

Scottie, I do agree with you though that having the ability to do two sports is certainly a selling point for alot of D3 schools as most D1's want kids to specialize because not everyone is a Bo Jackson. I also think it is a stronger selling point for schools like most of those in the MWC where they sometimes struggle to fill rosters in various sports. Whereas a WIAC school may not need that extra body on the track team. So to wrap it all up and make it maybe a little more clear, no, Donovan is not the exception, but yes, Scottie I do think that schools in the MWC can and have used the ability to do multiple sports to their advantage in recruiting.

[UWWFan]

Now, I'd like to chime in on something I read in the Daily Dose predictions for 09 that a couple of you made. I have a couple personal ties to the MWC and in the past couple of years have been able to see all the teams up close. Some, more than others and unfortunately Monmouth is one of those 'others'.

I think where the MWC is behind the WIAC is in overall speed and technique. Now, some say speed can't be taught, I believe you can make someone faster through training and some of the facilities and resources available to MWC schools are second to none, especially at Monmouth, those facilities are right up there near UWW. So it is possible that you can catch up on that part (more on inherant speed in a tick).

Technique is what may keep the MWC teams behind for a while. The reason is that you don't have spring ball. Yes the players are just out there in their 'underwear' (what my HS coach called it). But they get that time to practice their technique under the direction of their coach in an organized fashion. In terms of competing on the national level in FB I believe that is the biggest hit. However, I do think the ability for students to do multiple sports is important.

Now, the positive part I think if any team in the MWC could concievably catch up to the WIAC teams it is Monmouth. The reason is that their facilities (including academic) (If only I had known you had a climbing wall, you might have another alum ) are right up there with the WIAC schools. This helps draw in recruits, which is where the inherant speed comes from. Furthermore, you don't have to compete with the WIAC schools like most other MWC teams do, so I believe that gives you a step up on the others as well. Finally, the offense is designed to be a nicely balance spread offense (from what I can remember).

All that said, after UWW, I pull for the guys from the MWC because like I said, I have some ties there. I hope to see you and your schools grow and wouldn't mind seeing a Monmouth/UWW rivalry come out of it (with UWW getting most of the wins, but a healthy rivalry none the less).

[SNCOLDAD]

This is GREAT conversation going on. I am not sure if all is valid but there are a lot of good possible points being made by a lot of people. And most important in a very constructive way. 

Interesting comment on the "spread Offense". I think I know what you are referring to but is Monmouth the only MWC team that runs it? I think you said you have seen most of the MWC teams. I have to ask if you have seen the SNC offense much? Maybe it is not as spread as you would like to see but I think if you check the stats you would see that it is balanced. 3 or 4 receivers out on most plays, (this includes TE and RB) and running from a shotgun a substantial amount of plays, I think you could say this is well balanced and spread. Maybe not 4 wide outs and no RB is what you are referring to. If that is the case, that is fine.

I also recall some post in the way past that talked about UWW and the number on the roster vs. the number of players that actually work out with the team but are not listed. That post did not go into the detail on the rules as this recent post did. Very informative.

Thanks all and Happy Holidays.

[UWWFan]

This is GREAT conversation going on. I am not sure if all is valid but there are a lot of good possible points being made by a lot of people. And most important in a very constructive way. 

Interesting comment on the "spread Offense". I think I know what you are referring to but is Monmouth the only MWC team that runs it? I think you said you have seen most of the MWC teams. I have to ask if you have seen the SNC offense much? Maybe it is not as spread as you would like to see but I think if you check the stats you would see that it is balanced. 3 or 4 receivers out on most plays, (this includes TE and RB) and running from a shotgun a substantial amount of plays, I think you could say this is well balanced and spread. Maybe not 4 wide outs and no RB is what you are referring to. If that is the case, that is fine.

I also recall some post in the way past that talked about UWW and the number on the roster vs. the number of players that actually work out with the team but are not listed. That post did not go into the detail on the rules as this recent post did. Very informative.

Thanks all and Happy Holidays.

SNCOLDAD,

I do know that St. Norbert runs a version of the spread. Most teams in the MWC run a version of the spread, in fact many of them are similar. I was writing on how I thought Monmouth could be the one to contend with the WIAC so I just tried to focus on them. In my (convoluted) mind I was thinking a balanced spread in this case as opposed to a spread that just throws the ball like a Hawai'i or wishbone or double wing offense. I have nothing against the other offenses it's just that, at the moment you aren't going to out speed or out power most of these WIAC teams, so you need to keep them on their toes. The reason I didn't include St. Norbert out is that I feel Monmouth has a better situation set up to do this. I am not saying the St. Norbert can't, it's just going to be tougher for them. I can expound if you want, but I don't like being negative. (anywhere to go to see pictures of how the new facilities will look?

As far as the roster number and participating number, they actually have only like 95 on their team because of a title IX incident in like '94. And, no, they don't dress extra for a scout team. Yeah, they have more for camp, but they get down to this number by the time the season rolls around. A couple things that you may be thinking of: Grey shirts. I don't know that this is an official term, but basically think of it as a redshirt, only the players aren't associated with the team during the season. They get a workout plan from the trainer and work on gaining weight/agility during this time period. Then, during offseason workouts and spring practices they rejoin the team (I don't believe there are roster limits for during spring). Also, during offseason workouts, there may be some more that work out with the team but not head out in the fall.

Hopefully this answered your questions. Sorry if I swung and missed on spelling, not my strong suit.

[hickory_cornhusker]

This is GREAT conversation going on. I am not sure if all is valid but there are a lot of good possible points being made by a lot of people. And most important in a very constructive way. 

Interesting comment on the "spread Offense". I think I know what you are referring to but is Monmouth the only MWC team that runs it? I think you said you have seen most of the MWC teams. I have to ask if you have seen the SNC offense much? Maybe it is not as spread as you would like to see but I think if you check the stats you would see that it is balanced. 3 or 4 receivers out on most plays, (this includes TE and RB) and running from a shotgun a substantial amount of plays, I think you could say this is well balanced and spread. Maybe not 4 wide outs and no RB is what you are referring to. If that is the case, that is fine.

I also recall some post in the way past that talked about UWW and the number on the roster vs. the number of players that actually work out with the team but are not listed. That post did not go into the detail on the rules as this recent post did. Very informative.

Thanks all and Happy Holidays.

SNCOLDAD,

I do know that St. Norbert runs a version of the spread. Most teams in the MWC run a version of the spread, in fact many of them are similar. I was writing on how I thought Monmouth could be the one to contend with the WIAC so I just tried to focus on them. In my (convoluted) mind I was thinking a balanced spread in this case as opposed to a spread that just throws the ball like a Hawai'i or wishbone or double wing offense. I have nothing against the other offenses it's just that, at the moment you aren't going to out speed or out power most of these WIAC teams, so you need to keep them on their toes. The reason I didn't include St. Norbert out is that I feel Monmouth has a better situation set up to do this. I am not saying the St. Norbert can't, it's just going to be tougher for them. I can expound if you want, but I don't like being negative. (anywhere to go to see pictures of how the new facilities will look?

As far as the roster number and participating number, they actually have only like 95 on their team because of a title IX incident in like '94. And, no, they don't dress extra for a scout team. Yeah, they have more for camp, but they get down to this number by the time the season rolls around. A couple things that you may be thinking of: Grey shirts. I don't know that this is an official term, but basically think of it as a redshirt, only the players aren't associated with the team during the season. They get a workout plan from the trainer and work on gaining weight/agility during this time period. Then, during offseason workouts and spring practices they rejoin the team (I don't believe there are roster limits for during spring). Also, during offseason workouts, there may be some more that work out with the team but not head out in the fall.

Hopefully this answered your questions. Sorry if I swung and missed on spelling, not my strong suit.

Unfortunateley this is all I have been able to find on the web for what the new facilities look like for St. Norbert.  Looking at the pictures it looks like they will have the top facilities in the Midwest Conference. However it's going to be at least two years until it is finished. (They have about 60% of it funded and won't start until they have 90%. It says in there it will take about 15 months to complete.)

A thing I noticed is that a lot of the schools have renovated their football fields in the past 5 years or so. Carroll, Monmouth, Knox, St. Norbert (if this gets done), Ripon, any others that I'm forgetting?
http://www.snc.edu/athletics/athleticscomplex.html

[SNCOLDAD]

UWWFan, thanks for the info. I think gray shirt is probably what was being discussed. It sounds like it. No problem on the opinion that Monmouth has the best chance to compete comment. We all have our opinions. If my son went to Beloit, I would be singing their praises also, but I am also realistic. There is a rumor about the SNC facilities that since this latest gift of $4M was donated that there might be a surge to get to the 90% level sometime before spring. That would be great. What you see on the SNC website from the link provided by hickory is all I know. It will have locker rooms and sport turf. Those are the items I was interested in. Who knows, maybe we can get lucky and we will see ground breaking this summer.

Thanks for all the responses and information.

[Warhawk 96]

I'm a five time national qualifier in track and field as well as a 40 game starter for UWW 03-06. It's not impossible to do two sports and maintain a respectable GPA, you just have to have an even higher level of committment to what you are doing. Most people don't get that you need to spend less time drinking and playing Halo and use more of your "free time" getting better as an athlete.

[scottie]

Warhawk96: Does your computer screen have a mirror-like reflection, or do you just keep mirrors around your screen?