FB: Midwest Conference

[formerd3db]

A couple other points.  Scotty listed the roster sizes of a couple NESCAC teams.  Those are roster limit rosters.  They would actually have more players if they weren't limited.  And while I will say that the NESCAC teams are not top 25, the top half of the league plays pretty good football.  (Yes Pat, I actually said that).

I will also bring up Lake Forest because of my experience with them.  LFC's roster was 61 my sons freshman year, 2011.  Look backwards in the year end results and you will see a bottom feeder program.  The interim Head Coach was a VERY good recruiter (Now the Head Coach).  After a couple years of his recruiting we were MWC Co-Champs.  Now after steady hard recruiting and steady season results, bingo, roster of 100.

Alas, since they (NESCAC) refuse to join the playoffs, or even have ANY OOC games, we may never know.  Based on their national success in most other sports, I suspect that their football teams are pretty damned competitive (or at least would be, if allowed to compete for a couple of years).  Top 25?  Who the hell knows?

Good points, Mr. Ypsi.  That decision just doesn't make sense to me and is a bit hypocritical, IMO (and the Ivy Group is included in this). Both conferences refuse to allow the football teams to participate in post-season playoffs, however, they allow their other collegiate sport teams to participate in the national championship post-season games, such as basketball, track and field, and hockey.

We've had conversations/discussions with posters from the NESCAC board about this in past years and no one from there has been able to provide a definitive (and reasonable) answer as to why.  They just say that is the way the presidents and coaches want it, although I wonder how many of the current coaches, in reality, are really in support of it.  I don't believe at all that Colby HC Cosgrove, who was the HC at FCS Maine for 23 seasons and directed his team in the national championship playoffs (5 NCAA post-season appearances during his tenure there), wouldn't be of the personal opinion that there is no reason why the NESCAC shouldn't allow football post-season participation.  However, perhaps he has changed his mind now that he is at Colby, yet, my guess is that, more likely, he simply has to accept the current decision by the NESCAC "powers that be" and "play that game."

On the other hand, maybe there is some (faint) hope that decision might be changed someday-for a long time, they said they would never play more than 8 games in the season and that was changed.  So we'll see, although probably that will not occur anytime soon, if at all. 

[WW]

In lieu of recent events, the 2019 Most Valuable Performer trophy should be engraved today.  Congratulations Beloit training staff!!!  Somewhere, The Roop is smiling.

Yep, go Bucs! But the numbers tell a story there too -- specifically the numbers of three of their four down D linemen last week were 36, 40 and 44.

You'd have to say Beloit football is, if not on the endangered list, at least on the watch list. That's too bad. Lots of history at old Strong Stadium. It's a great place to watch a game.

[fulbakdad]

The new Beloit Coach came from the Forest.  He's a great guy/coach/recruiter.  Give him a chance...

[formerd3db]

ww:

Just curious in follow-up to your last post...Has there been indications (or backroom statements) that Beloit is or would consider discontinuing their football program?  Agree with you that would be a shame.  But, again, in keeping with the recent Grinnell discussion, there are always ways to save and improve a program. 

[WW]

Google "Beloit College deficit" and you'll see their immediate concerns are larger than saving a football program.

[scottie]

To be accurate....  I doubt anyone on this post believes that Grinnell has discontinued (ie. eliminated) football permanently.  Right???

[formerd3db]

Google "Beloit College deficit" and you'll see their immediate concerns are larger than saving a football program.

Thanks for the direction.  I had no idea it was that bad.  Some of the colleges who have faced the possibility of discontinuing their football programs (and some that did so) did not face the overall debt that Beloit is contending with-rather some of those simply in an attempt to reduce costs in the face of declining financial bases and income and despite having good endowments and available monies, they focused on the football programs, which we all know are the most expensive among the sports sponsored at schools.  Some of them have been able (and were determined enough) to save and continue the football programs, which is what I allude to when I mention that there are many ways to accomplish that. 

However, all that said, you are absolutely right that Beloit has more serious concerns than focusing on the fate of the football program.  Their current situation is similar to that of St. Joseph's College in Rensselaer, IN, a Division II athletic program, including football, which went defunct 2 years ago due to needing $100 million per year to continue operating (including to cover its debt.)  As others here on these boards have said, it is a definite fear that we may see many of these very old and great small colleges go defunct within the next decade due to these financial crises/challenges.  Certainly, it appears from the articles you mention, the current president and administration is doing all it can to work their new plan to save the college, although it will take some real belief, commitment, and sacrifice by the faculty and staff who are allowed to remain.  I feel for all those people as well as the students and alumni.

All of this, then makes me think then perhaps former HC Duerr saw this "writing on the wall" in his decision to return to his former school DII Tiffen as an assistant, yes, even though his HC overall record was not great, but perhaps that was not unexpected in view of the recruiting challenges he and his staff faced. And perhaps even more so that current HC Soenksen chose to a solid job at Lake Forest for a situation such as at Beloit and some of his friends/colleagues from other places join him there, other than it was an opportunity for him for a head coaching position.  The bottom line is I will (along with many others, of course) be very sad if not only the football program, but the entire college goes under.  Let's hope and pray that doesn't happen.  They have a tough, probably more than uphill battle.  Defiance College is in a very similar position also.

Anyway, thanks again for the direction to those articles for further information and education on this-much appreciated.

[formerd3db]

To be accurate....  I doubt anyone on this post believes that Grinnell has discontinued (ie. eliminated) football permanently.  Right???

Well, it wasn't mentioned that way in the released announcement by the school.  And I believe we all agree that while we hope that doesn't happen, it will depend on how they approach the potential options for stability and reorganization of the program.  I would hope they might consult other colleges who are going through this same problem such as Occidental, Earlham, Defiance to name a few as well as consult even others who have successfully met the challenge, such as Olivet (or even Oberlin and Kenyon) for example.

[Pat Coleman]

To be accurate....  I doubt anyone on this post believes that Grinnell has discontinued (ie. eliminated) football permanently.  Right???

I don't think they have as of yet. The past two programs that have done this both came back. Neither Lewis & Clark nor Occidental is competitive right now, but they have enough numbers to be safe.

[hazzben]

Grinnell has to make their own institutional decisions. They are an exceptional academic school. That doesn't preclude being good or even just competitive at FB.

For examples (removing NESCAC schools):

Johns Hopkins
Case Western Reserve
Carnegie Mellon
University of Chicago
Washington University StL
Carleton (A 7+ win team if they're in the MWC each year)
Macalester (MWC counterpart)
RPI
MIT (7.9% acceptance rate, and I'm guessing there calculus class isn't a pushover  )
Oberlin (not great, but they field team that's capable of winning 3-5 games each season)

Point being, there's absolutely a way to field a team that's competitive at academically elite institutions without sacrificing the academic integrity and culture of said institution. Where there's a will, there's a way.

[WW]

In reference to your St. Joe's comparison, d3db, I've gotta pal who graduated from there. Sounds like they were very uniquely mismanaged. I'm not sure what the issue at Beloit is/was, perhaps just a short-term marketing failure that has potentially disastrous effects.

Anyway, back to football. They played 34 guys last week, so they have more of a cushion than Grinnell did. Still, they're dangerously close to the edge. And getting pounded by Chicago tomorrow probably won't raise spirits any...

[Pat Coleman]

Oberlin also in its not-too-distant past dropped out of the NCAC for football for a year in order to regroup. It has hardly been smooth sailing there, either, as their roster numbers have also been low.

[hazzben]

Also should note, I'm not saying the cancelation of the season is the wrong move for player safety concerns. I don't know enough about the guys remaining to make a call there. Just noting that the reason they ended up here wasn't necessarily inevitable. Especially given the financial aid packages Grinnell kids get. There's a way to recruit players with that kind of aid ammunition. Provided you've got the right people at the helm.

Oberlin also in its not-too-distant past dropped out of the NCAC for football for a year in order to regroup. It has hardly been smooth sailing there, either, as their roster numbers have also been low.

Good to know on that Pat. I included them at the last minute, albeit without a ton of knowledge compared to the other schools on the list.

[judgetrainer]

Gentlemen (I am assuming a bit there but I have not seen a lot of women posting on the FB side), I have to say this has been a wonderful run of comments. Nice to see the MWC can have reasonable discussions on tough topics.

[scottie]

Gentlemen (I am assuming a bit there but I have not seen a lot of women posting on the FB side), I have to say this has been a wonderful run of comments. Nice to see the MWC can have reasonable discussions on tough topics.

All since my return to the board.