FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[K-Mack]

It looks like the ODAC may have another member very soon. As I wrote in the USAC side....
The clock maybe ticking down for the Hornets being in the USAC. President Davis in today's SU school paper wrote in his column that at the next ODAC meeting of school presidents he will make a formal request to join the conference. Many here have thought this would happen. It has been no secret that SU has always wanted to get in the ODAC from day one of the football program. Chances are this will happen. Its just when is the only question.

I foresee contention amongst schools with flying, stinging insects as mascots... maybe there could be a Buzz Challenge or Vespidae Clash sort of like the Commander In Chief's Cup between Yellowjackets, Hornets and Wasps. 

You know we already have Hornets, right? In other sports.

In fact, first Hornets to put a football team in the ODAC gets to keep the name.

I don't know if Shenandoah is a need for the ODAC, but it's a pretty good fit geographically and by school profile.

Small, liberal arts, by tuition, sports offered, etc.: See http://www.su.edu/pr/SU_stats.asp

If we've learned nothing in the past two days (see NAC and Empire 8 ), it's that every seven-team football conference is one unexpected defection away from possibly losing its automatic bid. And with some teams perpetually rumored to be leaving the ODAC, it would be a wise way for it as a football conference to hedge its bets.

The bigger questions there are really where does the USAC go from losing Shenandoah, should that take place (see Ralph Turner's previous posts about some of them joining the Great South, which most football followers have never heard of), and is it a good fit for the ODAC in sports besides football.

The ODAC already has Lynchburg, Roanoke, Randolph, Hollins, Sweet Briar and maybe even some I'm forgetting as non-football schools.

Personally I always thought Lynchburg and Roanoke would make good football schools, with them being in areas where HS football is really popular (therefore figuring there would be enough recruiting to sustain the programs) and them being small enough to need the male enrollment shot in the arm, and with them having City Stadium and Salem Stadium as possible options for home fields until they could build on-campus stadiums (or even if they couldn't)

When Randolph, nee RMWC, makes the co-ed move, football might very well make sense there too to boost male enrollment. (and if it can be received at Shenandoah, it can go over at RMWC). I guess they would have the same City Stadium option. Not sure if their campus is boxed in or has the room to add football fields ... pretty sure Jacket Lawyer and I and some others had this conversation in the preseason.

[BTEXPRESS]

I could be wrong, but I thought both Roanoke and Lynchburg recently upgraded their exsisting Lacrosse stadiums. I know Roanoke added field turf to their stadium and added new grandstands. However, I am not sure it can hold a Football size crowd. Any alums of either school know fore sure?.

[Pat Coleman]

If Roanoke wants to play football, Salem will make Salem Stadium available. One of the benefits of turf.

BTW, it would be the GSAC being absorbed by the USAC, not the other way around.

[K-Mack]

Also, just from a PR standpoint, with the ODAC being the host conference for the Stagg Bowl every year, it makes sense for it to be a healthy football conference.

Maybe that's not a real issue, and AQ doesn't necessarily = healthy, as some of the Empire 8 folks are starting to realize that Pool B might actually be a good place to be in three years or so.

Re: KickerDad and Muchacho ... small schools do view enrollment (Tuition) as a way to keep the budget healthy, i.e. 100 more kids at $30,000 a year equals $3 million yearly. Obviously services need to be provided for all those extra kids, but I get the sense small schools think it evens out (i.e. it costs the same to heat the classroom for 12 kids as it does 20 or whatever)

As far as KickerDad's assertion that travel funds are mismanaged in D1, I would say yes. I might use the term "managed differently" though. As in on road trips, we (R-MC mid-90s) would eat at Perkins or pull up to the Mickey D's, and as you got off the bus, one coach would give you a $5, another would give you $2 in ones, and you were on your own.

In D-1, dudes get like $80 a day for breakfast, lunch and dinner, even though boosters sometimes provide meals (I think, but don't quote me, that sounds pretty illegal), and there's no way you actually buy three meals on a day when you have practice or games, etc.

Even though that $80 figure might be for bowls and not for weekly games, I guarantee they're not getting $7.

Point is, there are corners they could cut if funds were as tight as they are in D3. Does a 200-member band have to travel? Does any kind of team apparel need to be available to players at any time? Are the travel accomodations luxurious?

We stayed in the same hotel as Clemson once (they were playing Wake, we were playing Guilford) and let's just say the number of support staff and hangers-on was a bit preposterous.

D1 also has a better chance with corporate sponsorships. I know they need more ticket staff, more people on teh payroll, etc., but still ...

Not all those expenses are athletic dept. expenses, but D3 proves it can be done differently.

[K-Mack]

Eastern Mennonite.

Another non-football school I forgot.

[K-Mack]

What are the chances of an exsisting ODAC school adding Football, i.e. Lynchburg? I know there was some talk a while back. How about some of the other schools?

      My gut feeling is that at least one ODAC school will add football in the next 3-5 years. Call me crazy....I wouldn't be surprised if Randolph College is one. My source tells me they have some $ issues that must be addressed. This probably is no deep dark secret. It is probably one of the primary reasons they are going coed in the first place. What better way to attract 100 male students/paying customers to a school known as an all girls school. Yes, starting a program is expensive but a football program will increase the schools exposure dramatically. That same exposure would cost big bucks to buy. The old guard won't like it but if you are going to move forward into the coed world, then move forward full steam ahead. 
     Again, let me reiterate, this is strictly my gut feeling.   

I agree with wholeheartedly.

I don't think football fits the profile of what that school was or what some of its alums may want it to be, but once you make the switch -- and we assume it's done for reasons of survival -- football is a proven benefit there.

[K-Mack]

More newspaper articles about changes in the ODAC (or at least the schedule of one team).  McDaniel wont play Bridgewater after this year.  I thought it was interesting that they (McDaniel) will play St. Vincent instead.  Also brought up the topic of playing CNU again and how the coach at CNU would like to play BC, but Clark isn't thrilled about that prospect.  Goes back to not wanting to play tougher non conference opponents I guess.
http://www.dnronline.com/sports_details.php?AID=12165&CHID=3

Interesting comments in that article.

Serious question (and I hate to bring up the public v private debate again)...how many public schools have won the Stagg Bowl?

Three, presuming West Georgia is a public school. But overall in Division III, across all sports, state schools win about a quarter of the championships, in line with their D-III representation.

Not only that, but the fact that Rowan and UW-Whitewater have failed to finish the deal on seven occasions in the past 15 years may skew the number of those who have actually done it vs. those who very well could have. In football, anyway.

[K-Mack]

What are the chances of an exsisting ODAC school adding Football, i.e. Lynchburg? I know there was some talk a while back. How about some of the other schools?

      My gut feeling is that at least one ODAC school will add football in the next 3-5 years. Call me crazy....I wouldn't be surprised if Randolph College is one. My source tells me they have some $ issues that must be addressed. This probably is no deep dark secret. It is probably one of the primary reasons they are going coed in the first place. What better way to attract 100 male students/paying customers to a school known as an all girls school. Yes, starting a program is expensive but a football program will increase the schools exposure dramatically. That same exposure would cost big bucks to buy. The old guard won't like it but if you are going to move forward into the coed world, then move forward full steam ahead. 
     Again, let me reiterate, this is strictly my gut feeling.   

Allsky7,

Interesting you mention $$ problems. I have a family member who is in the consulting business and works with colleges on raising money for different programs. We were having dinner recently and he said that from D1 right down to DIII, people would be surprised at the number of schools (well known and not so well known) that are having financial problems right now and football would be one of the first programs they cut. He said football requires much more money to fund and run the program than most folks would realize. For example gate reciepts and concessions won't come anywhere near covering travel expense for some school. These schools need huge donations and endowments every year to make it. He mentioned a few that are in financial distress and considering cutting football from it's programs and I was shocked (all D1)

So hearing that some of these small private DIII schools are suffering, doesn't surprise me.

The reason why it works in D3 sometimes when it doesn't in D1 is that those 100 students are much more valuable in an 1,100-student pool than in a 5,000-20,000 student pool.

Football, in many cases, is one of those things that even if it operates at a loss, brings a school exposure it can't otherwise buy and lends it a sense of big-school legitimacy.

That said, Google the comments/article from the Mansfield president (Division II PSAC) on why they dropped football after 2006. Very thoughtful.

Here, I found it for you on a blog: http://run4chocolate.wordpress.com/2007/02/09/why-one-college-dropped-football/

I think if you read that and the New York Times articles on small college enrollment vs. football (linked under General Division III issues somewhere for sure), and if you follow that board (try the Future of Division III and Financial problems - are things this bad elsewhere? threads), you'll gain a pretty good understanding of what motivates colleges' decisions on adding and dropping football, among other htings.

[K-Mack]

OK, one more and then you can get back to talking about how R-MC is gonna smoke Frostburg and whatnot.

I keep going back to a personal discussion I had with a hoops player's dad. His kid was recruited by RMC, HSC and CNU. Once all the "financial aid" packages were discussed, the difference in costs between schools was so minimal that it was not the decision point. And this was a guy riding the bench. However, that was hoops and it is easier to absorb 10-12 financial packages than with a 80-100 player football team. So, to a point I can understand the tuition factor, but I don't think it is as much a factor as some make it out to be.

We could not get WLU78 to understand this for the life of us.

Need-based aid packages and merit scholarships for good students can help defray some of the difference in costs.

However, I do think a lower base tuition is a distinct advantage in football, especially given the type of athlete teams often recruit. In other words, football is more popular among the poor who might not otherwise be able to afford a $30,000 college than, say, lacrosse or tennis is.

For this reason, among others, I don't think CNU would ever be a member of the ODAC. The Captains, while great for Division III and for Tidewater, are not "a good fit."

The reason Guilford works when there are geographically closer options is because they are charging about what other ODAC schools charge, recruiting students within the same SAT range as other ODAC schools and working with resources similar to what other ODAC schools are working with.

CNU, in my limited knowledge and humble opinion, is not.

Neither is W&L though. They're recruiting out of a different pool and working with different resources and goals. But two reasons they're in and CNU I don't think ever will be:

1. You can't sever ties with a charter member. W&L is ODAC as long as it wants to be.
2. The impact of their recruiting advantages are felt in the less-traditionally popular sports. In basketball and football, the pool they recruit from might well put them at a disadvantage, or keeps them even at best.

Also, W&L's high academics and national profile are good for the ODAC, as is their prowess in some of the less popular sports. They are also practically in the center of ODAC country travel-wise, so despite not being a "fit" with their student body, they bring major benefits.

Otherwise, though, what you have with the current ODAC football schools is, generally speaking, recruiting the same type of kids and charging similar prices, among other things, which in theory results in no unfair competitive advantages in recruiting. Theoretically, the same kind of kids are competing against each other for the same championships.

Now, everyone's got recruiting advantages. Emory & Henry can recruit Tennessee since its next door and Randolph-Macon can recruit Pa., Md. and New Jersey, if they so  choose, since it's closer than parts of Virginia are. CUA has the Northeast and has the "in" with Catholic schools. Guilford doesn't have as much competition for North Carolina D3 types as Va. schools do for their D3 types. Bridgewater has the Stagg Bowl, H-SC has the allure of a woman-free campus so you can "concentrate on your studies" without being distracted.

What I think, though, is that "fit" -- even though it sounds like a vague term for elitism -- is actually a decent goal. When you have a group of similar schools, you would in theory have a situation that makes for even competition, which in turn makes for good rivalries, and if everyone feels they can win a championship or aren't that far off, in any sport, then ultimately you have a conference everyone enjoys being a part of and competing in.

[BTEXPRESS]

K MACK What a well thought out, outstanding post. I can't disagree with anything you have said. Bravo!!!!!!

[CNU85]

nicely said K-MAck. I agree with what you said. Further to your points, a problem CNU has is academics and admissions. Senator Trible does not back down on standards for athletes whatsoever. He's firm on that, end of story. Hence, really good players from right here in Newport News end up elsewhere (i.e Bush at NCW - heavily recruited by CNU). Anyway, if you ever had the chance to be at CNU pre-Trible and now....you would see an ODAC level change in the "elitism" factor you mentioned. Sen Trible is an HSC and W&L grad. When he first arrived at CNU, some said he was trying to turn CNU into a "public" HSC. Ummm....what's wrong with that? CNU has raised standards so much so that I would not be accepted with the credentials and scores I had back in 1980. Not even close. (and I hold a Masters from William & Mary! - go figure).

I think the real advantage CNU has over other D3 schools in the ODAC and USA South is the Trible factor. As a former politician he knows how to raise money. The Ferguson Center for the Arts is an example - built by fund raising - almost $60 million. He is a visionary and realizes the impact that sports has on a university. POMOCO was built with the help of a $1 million donation. Serious bucks for a d3 program. Trible along with AD CJ Woolum have made CNU sports what it is today. They "get it" when it comes to understanding the role of sports.

I agree CNU will never be an ODAC school. It isn't a fit. I can even understand the argument that they don't fit in the USA South. CNU is a public large (5,000 students) school, with a President with a vision, rapid growth and increased academic standards. For those reasons, CNU, in my mind, is hard pressed to find where they "fit". I'm not sure where CNU fits - any ideas?

[Uncle Jessie]

They fit in D1-AA

[CNU85]

They fit in D1-AA

I can't argue that....not sure I would want it.....but can't find an argument against it.

+1 for the SU guy....wow...did I just do that!

[Snakehandler]

Eastern Mennonite.

Another non-football school I forgot.

I beg your pardon, EMU has a strong futbal program:

[Snakehandler]