FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[K-Mack]

When the President recognizes that decent sports programs breed alumni contributions and school support, programs flurish as Bridgewater's has since 2000.

Nice to see someone articulate this (for the most part) irrefutable theorem.  Nothing breeds success like success. 

Look at Hampden-Sydney.  Prior to Martyball, I don't think a refurbishment of Death Valley would've been possible (can't wait to see the finished product, by the way).  But not only are they getting that, they continue to get good players at that school.

It makes me positively green with envy.  But have to give credit where credit is due.

Little-known secret: Having played in the ODAC in the mid-90s, I hate(d) Emory & Henry far more than H-SC, being that the former stole two Ws from us in the final minutes, and the Tigers were spotting us 42-6 leads and whatnot.

[K-Mack]

If anyone has any questions about the quality of academic/athletic standards at Bridgewater

I'm sure Bridgewater compares to all the football-playing ODAC schools except the one that has wanted out for the Centennial for as long as I can remember.

I wouldn't be stunned if we lost a charter member in the coming D4 exodus.

(starts isht)

[allsky7]

     I also agree that most of the banter that takes place on here is in good clean fun. (Picking on W&L and in my case, mostly R-MC) It's kinda like picking on your sister when you were a kid. You love her but boy is it ever fun to push her buttons. 

Just to clarify, Allsky, are we using the Hampden-Sydney country definition of "pushing your sister's buttons?"

     Hey K-Mack...that's a pretty good comeback. You are going to have to work with Jacket on his comebacks to my Macon jabbing. 

[WLU78]

Maybe it varies from professional field to professional field, however, Journalism tends to be a business where people can take something more tangible than your grades (stories you've written or design or editing you've done) and get a lot out of it.

Hmmmm.....worked for Jason Blair.

[WLU78]

Let me see if I have this figured out.   I can now deduce from prior posts that most of the BC posters were also admitted to W&L, but chose to pay a tuition in the same range of W&L's so they can get a degree that doesn't matter as long as they are nice people who work hard.

Gang, I can't buy that.  I have never said anything disparaging about BC or their academics, I have pointed out third party assesments and I have raised the topic of the size of recruiting pools as it relates to admission standards.  It is a relevant topic based on several articles I have submitted to the board as well as posts made by others on this board recently.  We have further surmised that there has admittedly been hanky panky with aid packages and admission waivers for athletes in the past.  But Pat is convinced those days are over.  I admit I am not up to speed as to when the reforms were instituted, but I wonder if there is a correlation to the ascendancy of BC football, and now what appears to be a leveling and more competative league with several schools in the hunt for the league championship this past season with the implementation of said reforms. 

Maybe coach Clark is the next Wacker in the ODAC or maybe there was a plan to breed success when he arrived.  I know Charlie Pell did as much for the University of Florida, the school paid a price with the NCAA but the die was cast and two NCs later the momentum is rolling, but there will always be those that resent the "perceived" means used to breed success.  (Personal disclaimer; I am a big Charlie Pell fan and as a loyal Gator I will defend Pell and what he did, I think UF got screwed by other SEC schools who knew what would happen when the Gators finally got on track--see the Bear Bryant quote) 

So with that said, does the end justify the means?

(As an aside:  I disagree with the premise that one's diploma doesn't mean much in the "real world"  to a point.  Whether you want to admit it or not, there is something to be said for some academic rigor in your undergraduate work.  Learning to read critically, write persuasively (spelling aside Hasa), formulate a thesis and defend it are tantamount to what the was intended by a liberal arts training.  Whether you continue to use those skills after your graduation is up to you, but there is value to mastering those skills beyond being a good person.)

[allsky7]

Let me see if I have this figured out.   I can now deduce from prior posts that most of the BC posters were also admitted to W&L, but chose to pay a tuition in the same range of W&L's so they can get a degree that doesn't matter as long as they are nice people who work hard.

Gang, I can't buy that.  I have never said anything disparaging about BC or their academics, I have pointed out third party assesments and I have raised the topic of the size of recruiting pools as it relates to admission standards.  It is a relevant topic based on several articles I have submitted to the board as well as posts made by others on this board recently.  We have further surmised that there has admittedly been hanky panky with aid packages and admission waivers for athletes in the past.  But Pat is convinced those days are over.  I admit I am not up to speed as to when the reforms were instituted, but I wonder if there is a correlation to the ascendancy of BC football, and now what appears to be a leveling and more competative league with several schools in the hunt for the league championship this past season with the implementation of said reforms. 

Maybe coach Clark is the next Wacker in the ODAC or maybe there was a plan to breed success when he arrived.  I know Charlie Pell did as much for the University of Florida, the school paid a price with the NCAA but the die was cast and two NCs later the momentum is rolling, but there will always be those that resent the "perceived" means used to breed success.  (Personal disclaimer; I am a big Charlie Pell fan and as a loyal Gator I will defend Pell and what he did, I think UF got screwed by other SEC schools who knew what would happen when the Gators finally got on track--see the Bear Bryant quote) 

So with that said, does the end justify the means?

(As an aside:  I disagree with the premise that one's diploma doesn't mean much in the "real world"  to a point.  Whether you want to admit it or not, there is something to be said for some academic rigor in your undergraduate work.  Learning to read critically, write persuasively (spelling aside Hasa), formulate a thesis and defend it are tantamount to what the was intended by a liberal arts training.  Whether you continue to use those skills after your graduation is up to you, but there is value to mastering those skills beyond being a good person.)

     Yes 78....I agree.

allsky7 before 1985 - smart assed redneck who thought the world was flat.
allsky7 after 1985 with that liberal arts degree from Maryville in hand - smart assed redneck who has learned to think critically and on occasion spew out a few fancy words. Oh the horror!

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

K-Mack and all other's

Maybe I am still young compared to everyone else, so I might be naive by saying this but I already have a plan for my kid(s).  First off push them to be the best at school.  Get them involved in sports and tell them if they want to be the best they have to work hard at it.  Give them the tools to do so. In the meantime I will be putting away an average of 13 dollars a day for 6570 days (or 18 years) and by then I will have $85,410 (unadjusted for inflation if I factor in inflation it will be more) saved up for a college fund.  I think I have all the bases covered.  If they do well academically they will get academic scholarships.  If they do well athletically they will get an athletic scholarship. I think one of them will probably happen.  Plus, if that happens I have already starting saving and will be able to use it as I please.

Of course that is just one kid. However by then college will cost that much per year so I better hope my kid(s) hold up thier end of the bargain.

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

Whether you want to admit it or not, there is something to be said for some academic rigor in your undergraduate work.  Learning to read critically, write persuasively (spelling aside Hasa), formulate a thesis and defend it are tantamount to what the was intended by a liberal arts training.  Whether you continue to use those skills after your graduation is up to you, but there is value to mastering those skills beyond being a good person.

All that falls under the "working hard" aspect of what my dad was trying to get across.

A student can find easy courses or easy professors at any college or university (yes, including W&L).

I think there may be a misconception with schools with "high academic reputations."

Schools like W&L will just get high school students who performed really well in the classroom, were active in extracurricular activities, and are good standardized test takers.

Schools like BC will get high school students who performed really well and not so well in the classroom, were active and not active in extracurricular activities, and are good and not so good standardized test takers.

This may be difficult to grasp, but that may be the difference (academically) between a W&L and a BC.  A W&L won't have any kids who barely made it through their HS studies, or the students who couldn't (or didn't want to) be involved in school activities beyond the classroom, or the students who don't take standardized tests well.  A BC will have some of those kids.

But that doesn't affect W&L's and BC's quality of professors or difficulty of courses.  If you think that, you're suggesting a BC professor couldn't get a job at W&L or that W&L's Linear Algebra is more rigorous than BC's Linear Algebra.

Hats off to the BCs of the world that give kids another chance who, intentionally or not, faulted in an area or two.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

On the topic of academic standards did anyone see that "Outside the Lines" episode on ESPN a few years ago about Duke's mens basketball team, where many of the players major was sociology.  The Duke student body, newspaper, and staff all said it was the "easiest" major at the school. Also that advisors encourged athletes to major in it. So the point is I guess every school has some fall back. I think the number of those majors have dropped since the airing of those episodes.

[tigerfanalso]

There is no question that W&L is the best school in the ODAC.
Applicant pool is comprised of the top 5% of all HS students; very difficult and competitive. Once in, the standards are higer. Percentage of students applying to graduate school and the acceptance rate also higher, much higher. What school has more CEOs of Fortune 500 companies? W&L.
I've enjoyed reading the the post on this topic, but, a diploma from W&L does mean more, a lot more, than a diploma from HSC, RMC, E&H, Bridgewater, RC, EMU, or any other school in the ODAC. Not to say the other schools are not good schools, they are; but they are not considered to be an elite institution on a national level. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.

Difficult for a HSC guy to admit but the facts are the facts ....September is right around the corner !!!!

[wrighthall220]

Ok, let's all agree to disagree... W&L is the bestest smal collage in Virgina... BC is shady and excepts dumber kidz.   W&L shold have there own confrance...


You can't debate with a brick wall or in this case that there is more to life then the college degree you have or that there is more to an education then competition between the cream of the crop from high schools around the country.    There are those of us that applied only to Bridgewater or Maryville because we felt comfortable spending four important years attending a school that made them feel welcome.   Some of us could have attended a W&L or a William and Mary but decided not to.   The fact remains that deciding on a college should be a personal decision that is made when someone feels comfortable in an environment.  Part of what made my decision for Bridgewater easy was the fact that I personally knew past graduates who were successful in life and the fact that people like Pres. Stone and Coach Clark made me feel comfortable.    Being successful in life takes on a different meaning for each individual.   Some find success and happiness in money, in deep intellectual debates or job titles while others find success and happiness in living a simple life,  a life in which they help others or simply by being a decent individual.  Neither should be looked down on just as one college graduate should not question the education or academic standards of a college they decided not to attend.   If someone is comfortable with working hard in life and proving themselves by their work then more power to them.  If someone wants to rely on their degree and alumni association...good for them as well.   

[wrighthall220]

There is no question that W&L is the best school in the ODAC.
Applicant pool is comprised of the top 5% of all HS students; very difficult and competitive. Once in, the standards are higer. Percentage of students applying to graduate school and the acceptance rate also higher, much higher. What school has more CEOs of Fortune 500 companies? W&L.
I've enjoyed reading the the post on this topic, but, a diploma from W&L does mean more, a lot more, than a diploma from HSC, RMC, E&H, Bridgewater, RC, EMU, or any other school in the ODAC. Not to say the other schools are not good schools, they are; but they are not considered to be an elite institution on a national level. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.

Difficult for a HSC guy to admit but the facts are the facts ....September is right around the corner !!!!

It's not a question on which degree is "worth more" but a question of why it would worth questioning the academic standards of other ODAC schools when it is clear that in order to graduate from any school in the ODAC including non-football schools you must work hard and you have accomplished something significant when you do graduate.   Now,  having worked in the engineering field for years now it is pretty clear to me that once you've been out in the real world for a few years your degree is meaningless compared to your work ethic and track record as an employee.   I understand the work ethic to succeed at W&L carries over in the future but I can honestly say my Bridgewater degree has yet to hold me back against the competition which often includes MIT degrees and Princeton degrees.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

I think I can settle the debate refering to princetonreview.com Bridgewater doesn't have the worst academic standards.  The following is a listing of how The Princeton Review has rated the schools of the ODAC "Football" Conference (60-99 is the scale)

Washington & Lee 98
Hampden-Sydney 86
Guilford 85
Randolph Macon 80
Emory & Henry 78
Bridgewater 73
Catholic 71

So you can see BC is not the worst.

[Jacketlawyer]

There is no question that W&L is the best school in the ODAC.

I've enjoyed reading the the post on this topic, but, a diploma from W&L does mean more, a lot more, than a diploma from HSC, RMC, E&H, Bridgewater, RC, EMU, or any other school in the ODAC. Not to say the other schools are not good schools, they are; but they are not considered to be an elite institution on a national level. You guys are comparing apples to oranges.

Difficult for a HSC guy to admit but the facts are the facts ....

Or for an R-MC guy to agree with.  I've been avoiding getting involved with this particular topic, but could resist no longer.  In addition to great academics, W&L has a national alumni network which is really second to none.  W&L grads get chances at jobs the rest of us don't even know about.

Further, there are some professions in which where you went to school does make a difference.  Mine is one of them, and I know this from direct experience.  The post law school scramble for some of the bigger corporate gigs in DC was unimaginable, and where you went undergrad, as well as law school, was part of the package.  Believe me.

But I don't have that much of a problem ceding this to W&L.  Much of their success has to do with their endowment (a topic already covered on this board about this time last year), and to a degree, the decision to go co-ed in '86.  If anything, the story of W&L is very inspirational and one to be studied rather than envied.  I should certainly hope my school is taking some notes. . . .

[Pat Coleman]

Let me see if I have this figured out.   I can now deduce from prior posts that most of the BC posters were also admitted to W&L, but chose to pay a tuition in the same range of W&L's so they can get a degree that doesn't matter as long as they are nice people who work hard.

W&L tuition + fees: $35,445
Bridgewater tuition + fees: $21,490

Not sure what your definition of "same range" is but let's say I would hope you're not a structural engineer!