FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[Ralph Turner]

I don't get over to this board much, but I like to keep tabs on the ODAC because of Coach Monty at EHC.  Hasanova, great post.  I wish I could award karma.  A lot of people do not realize that the Wisconsin schools' tuition is ridiculously low compared to the private schools.  Their enrollments are almost 5 times that of the OAC schools and probably moreso with other institutions.

Thanks, TooForRaider.  MUC has certainly set the standard for the rest of DIII - and they have definitely proven a private school can win the title!

Wisconsin football in general and WIAC football in particular are special cases.  As far as I know, there is only one DI football-playing school in the state (U. of Wisconsin in Madison).   Sprinkle in a few non-WIAC DIII's (Beloit, Wisconsin Lutheran) and the truth is - the WIAC has no real competition for quality athletes who can't quite make the Badgers!

Compare this to NC.  First, there are over 30 college football programs in the state.  Second, there are five DI programs (UNC, NCSU, Duke, Wake Forest and ECU).   Third, our "second-tier" equivalent to the WIAC's UW-Whitewater is a little program you may have heard of, but instead of being called UNC-Boone, it's called Appalachian State.   Ask the Michigan Wolverines if they've ever heard of them.  

+1 for the analysis of why the WIAC is a special case in D-III.

[hasanova]

+1 for the analysis of why the WIAC is a special case in D-III.

Thank you, Ralph.  I appreciate your comments.  I realize NC has a larger population than Wisconsin, but in addition to the five DI's in North Carolina, the Tarheel State has six I-AA's (sorry, FCS) schools (Appalachian State, Western Carolina, Elon, NC A&T, Winston-Salem State and NC Central) and lots of DII's (Lenoir-Rhyne, Mars Hill, Wingate, Brevard, Elizabeth City State, Chowan, Fayetteville State, Johnson. C. Smith  and others).  I'm not sure where UNC-Charlotte will be once their program gets going, but my guess will be FCS (I-AA).  Discounting the so-called I-AA non-scholarship programs (Davidson, UNC-Pembroke and Campbell), there are only four programs of over 30 in the state that can't offer a scholarship, i.e. the four DIII's:  Guilford, Greensboro, NC Wesleyan and Methodist.

[tigerfanalso]

Hasa

Your most recent post is the reason the ODAC is not higher up the food chain in D3 football (my opinion). Virginia has the same thing going on with ODU, Hampton, Norfolk St., W&M, Richmond, Madison & VMI all playing 1AA, Virginia St., St. Paul, Virginia Union playing D2 and HSC, RMC, E&H, W&L, CNU, SU, AC, Ferrum, Va. Wise and several others playing D3 and of course Va. Tech & UVA playing D1. Too many mouths to feed; not enough border line D1 talent finding its way into D3 football in Va. because of the numbers.
It happens occassionaly but not often enough for an ODAC team to make a run and grow into a national contender.

B'ball is a different gig strictly due to the numbers required in football. 

[02 Warhawk]

I don't get over to this board much, but I like to keep tabs on the ODAC because of Coach Monty at EHC.  Hasanova, great post.  I wish I could award karma.  A lot of people do not realize that the Wisconsin schools' tuition is ridiculously low compared to the private schools.  Their enrollments are almost 5 times that of the OAC schools and probably moreso with other institutions.

Thanks, TooForRaider.  MUC has certainly set the standard for the rest of DIII - and they have definitely proven a private school can win the title!

Wisconsin football in general and WIAC football in particular are special cases.  As far as I know, there is only one DI football-playing school in the state (U. of Wisconsin in Madison).   Sprinkle in a few non-WIAC DIII's (Beloit, Wisconsin Lutheran, et al) and the truth is - the WIAC has no real competition for quality athletes who can't quite make the Badgers!

Compare this to NC.  First, there are over 30 college football programs in the state.  Second, there are five DI programs (UNC, NCSU, Duke, Wake Forest and ECU).   Third, our "second-tier" equivalent to the WIAC's UW-Whitewater is a little program you may have heard of, but instead of being called UNC-Boone, it's called Appalachian State.   Ask the Michigan Wolverines if they've ever heard of them.  

Being an alumn of UWW and a fan of the WIAC, i can't argue with you there. you're absolulety right. WIAC has a lot of talent to chose from if its student athletes want to stay in state and play football. Hence D3football.com naming the WIAC the best conference in DIII.

[kickerdad]

Hasa

Your most recent post is the reason the ODAC is not higher up the food chain in D3 football (my opinion). Virginia has the same thing going on with ODU, Hampton, Norfolk St., W&M, Richmond, Madison & VMI all playing 1AA, Virginia St., St. Paul, Virginia Union playing D2 and HSC, RMC, E&H, W&L, CNU, SU, AC, Ferrum, Va. Wise and several others playing D3 and of course Va. Tech & UVA playing D1. Too many mouths to feed; not enough border line D1 talent finding its way into D3 football in Va. because of the numbers.
It happens occassionaly but not often enough for an ODAC team to make a run and grow into a national contender.

B'ball is a different gig strictly due to the numbers required in football. 

This is probably why some DIII schools like Averett recruit heavily in Florida. I may be wrong but I don't think there are any DIII schools in Florida.

[hasanova]

Hasa

Your most recent post is the reason the ODAC is not higher up the food chain in D3 football (my opinion). Virginia has the same thing going on with ODU, Hampton, Norfolk St., W&M, Richmond, Madison & VMI all playing 1AA, Virginia St., St. Paul, Virginia Union playing D2 and HSC, RMC, E&H, W&L, CNU, SU, AC, Ferrum, Va. Wise and several others playing D3 and of course Va. Tech & UVA playing D1. Too many mouths to feed; not enough border line D1 talent finding its way into D3 football in Va. because of the numbers.
It happens occassionaly but not often enough for an ODAC team to make a run and grow into a national contender.

B'ball is a different gig strictly due to the numbers required in football.  

This is probably why some DIII schools like Averett recruit heavily in Florida. I may be wrong but I don't think there are any DIII schools in Florida.

First, Florida, in my opinion, is one of the top 5 states for HS football.   There is a lot of talent!  Ohio, Texas, California and Pennsylvania are probably my other four - in no particular order.  Second, it depends on where the HC and/or assistants have contacts.  And you are right, there are no DIII's in Florida - or South Carolina - and only one non-provisional for football, of which I am aware, in Georgia (LaGrange).  

[hasanova]

Hasa

Your most recent post is the reason the ODAC is not higher up the food chain in D3 football (my opinion). Virginia has the same thing going on with ODU, Hampton, Norfolk St., W&M, Richmond, Madison & VMI all playing 1AA, Virginia St., St. Paul, Virginia Union playing D2 and HSC, RMC, E&H, W&L, CNU, SU, AC, Ferrum, Va. Wise and several others playing D3 and of course Va. Tech & UVA playing D1. Too many mouths to feed; not enough border line D1 talent finding its way into D3 football in Va. because of the numbers.
It happens occassionaly but not often enough for an ODAC team to make a run and grow into a national contender.

B'ball is a different gig strictly due to the numbers required in football. 

Quite true, tfa.  In fact, I was thinking about how similar the situation was in VA when I was posting about NC.  I went to public school in southwestern VA through the 9th grade and grew up in border counties on both sides of the line, so I know the lengthy list of Virginia schools well.   As you so correctly note, there are a lot of options after UVa and VPI.

[hasanova]

Being an alumn of UWW and a fan of the WIAC, i can't argue with you there. you're absolulety right. WIAC has a lot of talent to chose from if its student athletes want to stay in state and play football. Hence D3football.com naming the WIAC the best conference in DIII.

Warhawk, I think you and D3football.com are right - as it stands right now, the WIAC is the best conference in DIII football.

[Ryan Tipps]

To help this discussion along, I want to ressurect the Division III football map that made an appearance a year (or more?) ago.

Hasa, I think you're mostly right with the states that have the top high school football programs, but even there, you're looking at a lot of competition for the best athletes.

We've already seen the long list of schools in Va. that play football. But what about Pennsylvania, which has 20+ D3 schools, at least 15 D2 schools on top of the 10 or more D1 (FBS & FCS) schools.

Then there's Ohio, which also has nearly two dozen D3 programs, five D2 programs and several D1s.

While a handful of states such as Wisconsin and Texas have great high school athletes and only a few in-state college to pick from, I think most Division III schools across the country face pretty stiff competition to get the athletes they want. And, I guess the optimistic side of me thinks that there's more to it than football as to why some of these kids go to the college that they do. 

[tigerfanalso]

Ryan

Good points you make, but I think that is why there is no dominant D3 program in Pennsylvania. I know there use to be; Widner was a dominant program when I was coming along but has not been for quite some time.
It does not explain why or how Mt. Union does what it does up in Ohio, I can only  assume a lot of really good players that could play up elect to attend Mt. Union to be part of that great tradition; hopefully quality of education has something to do with it as well. That program truly is outstanding and difficult to figure out exactly how it got started and how it continues year in, year out. 

[skunks_sidekick]

That program truly is outstanding and difficult to figure out exactly how it got started and how it continues year in, year out.

It's simple........win ONE.....and repeat.   8)

[Ryan Tipps]

Good points you make, but I think that is why there is no dominant D3 program in Pennsylvania. I know there use to be; Widner was a dominant program when I was coming along but has not been for quite some time. ...

It's easy to define Mount Union as dominant -- their success has set the bar for any football team at any level. But prior to Whitewater's recent run, depending on how you define "dominant," there have been few teams that have reached that point. Augustana had a great run in the '80s; Rowan was long a powerhouse; Ithaca has won the Stagg Bowl a couple of times.

I guess the point of my last post was that I hope people won't use the fact that Virginia has a lot of football-playing schools in it as an excuse for why a team or a confernce here can't be upper crust. That seemed to be the way the discussion was floating, but maybe I'm wrong about that.

Especially on the mid- to upper-East Coast, most every state faces the same challenges we do in competing for the best student-athletes. And Stagg Bowl teams have come from this general part of the country: Bridgewater (obviously), Lycoming, Ithaca.

Virginia can get higher up on the food D3 chain, and in the past two years, there's been a distinct move that way. Unfortunately, I think this year is going to be a "two steps back" sort of season, but top to bottom, there's no reason a conference like the ODAC can't soon become as good as, say, the Middle Atlantic Conference, in my opinion.

[HSCTiger74]

Just out of curiosity, does the ODAC have any league-wide rules on roster limits, or recruiting restrictions that might put the coaches at a disadvantage vis-a-vis other conferences?

[Blutarsky]

MUC's success is easily defined:  Larry Kehres.  Look at the record before he arrived, and during his tenure.

[Ryan Tipps]

Just out of curiosity, does the ODAC have any league-wide rules on roster limits, or recruiting restrictions that might put the coaches at a disadvantage vis-a-vis other conferences?

I don't know the exact rules, but there's no restriction as far as I can tell. Teams this year have anywhere from 75 to 160 players at the start of camp.