FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[HSCTiger fan]

...I don't think the number of schools has an effect...

It has an effect  in NC. There are 2 non-scholarship D1 programs in Davidson and Campbell. In addition, there are 5 private and 4 public D2 schools. It's as much about ego as anything. The kids like saying they are playing D1 or that they received a football scholarship more so than saying they received an academic scholarship.

As far as Coach Favret is concerned.  I think your most accurate statement was in the forth from last paragraph when you said "I don't know".  I could say the same things you said about Coach Favret about every tenured head footcall coach in D3 football except for the coaches at Mount Union and UWW.

...The last 5 years my sense is HSC has somewhat flattened out in what they are able to do. That is different from the first 8 or so years under Coach Favret....

From 2007 to 2011 HSC has won 88% of its football games, had 4 playoff appearances, 3 conference championships and 29 FIRST TEAM all ODAC players. You are certainly right in that it is very different than Coach's first 8 years.  "Somewhat flattened out"? I think they are just getting started. I totally disagree with your assessment of HSC's football program.

[DGPugh]

I read the whole thing, 2x. AUsome column

I am unsure if numbers matter in Va, but in Bama we have 2 D-3 programs ( Huntingdon and BSC) and 1 on the Ga-Al line (LaGrange College); We have 5 D-1BCS programs (Alabama - Tuscaloosa, Auburn, Troy University, UAB, and South Alabama), 4 D-1FCS (Samford, Jax State, Al A&M, AL State), 5 D-2 programs (UNA, UWA, Tuskegee U, Stillman College, Miles College), and at least 2 NAIA programs (Concordia College, Faulkner U) and a 3rd NAIA with most of its campus in Ga and part in AL (Point University)

several of the programs compete regularly for conference or national championships (3 of the past D-1's from bama and likely a 4th in a row) (NOTE: Alabama did NOT win their conference last year, yet cheated somehow to a National championship)

and Alabama is a real little poor state yet BSC and Huntingdon appear to be competitive.
I believe it is about recruiting hard, working with what u got ( strength and conditioning) building a winning attitude, and full time wide open coaching

here is a link to little Huntingdon's Strength program....watch a few of em (29 kids powerclean over 300lbs)

http://www.youtube.com/user/hcstrength?feature=results_main

keep the faith

Go Hawks

[wesleydad]

jk, i read the whole thing too.  excellently spoken and hard to argue with.  there is a huge difference between most of d3 and the top tier teams.  having watched wesley's climb to the top tier i have seen many games against teams that where thought to be there and wesley dominated them.  and wesley has been dominated by the top of the top tier teams on several occasions, but i think they are closing the gap or the top is coming back a little.  wesley has played both bridgewater and hampden in the playoffs and the games were not close.  i like the ODAC teams i have seen play.  the games are fun to watch and the people are really nice, but at present the top teams in the ODAC can not compete with the top tier teams.  i agree that hampden had scheduled up and competed well when they have.  it is tough to get to the top tier and even tougher to stay there.  there are a myriad of reasons and many have listed them before so i will not list any again.  jk got to see wesley play live this year and he has stated what he thinks will happen if W&L, his team, has to play them in the playoffs.  i like his honesty when it comes to answering any and all questions.  +1 to you jk.

[jknezek]

From 2007 to 2011 HSC has won 88% of its football games, had 4 playoff appearances, 3 conference championships and 29 FIRST TEAM all ODAC players. You are certainly right in that it is very different than Coach's first 8 years.  "Somewhat flattened out"? I think they are just getting started. I totally disagree with your assessment of HSC's football program.

My last post on this topic and then I've exhausted my opinion. From when Coach Favret arrived until that 2007 period HSC improved massively. That is what I said. Since then, HSC has been the premiere program in the ODAC. That is also what I said. But in that period where they have been at the top of the ODAC I don't think they have made further progress toward a national impact. 4 playoff appearances? 0-4. 3 conference championships? W&L has two from 2006 to 2011. Not exactly a one program domination. RMC has the other. End result? 0-7 combined.

The only moderately close playoff game was HSC's home upset by the NJAC team in 2010. I've admitted in other posts I think that HSC team was the best the ODAC had fielded in years and they still couldn't win the ODAC title or progress with a home playoff game. Close though. Closer than anyone else in that 0-7 playoff run.

That next hurdle hasn't been crossed by ANY team in the ODAC. The fact that I pointed out that HSC appears, to me, to be the team trying is actually a compliment. The fact that they haven't gotten there isn't a knock. It's really, really hard to keep improving at the rate that HSC improved from 99-07. But since then, they made it to the ODAC best, but I don't think they have made a regional or national impact and I don't see them getting closer. The playoff loss last year was worse than the one in 2010 and this year they are a 3 loss team. Not the trend a "just getting started" team is looking for. Of course, despite that trend, I don't really see HSC regressing either. They ARE the best in the ODAC over the last 6 or 7 years.

I guess I ruffled a few feathers and I'm sorry. Honestly, I think it's great that HSC is trying. If W&L can't win the ODAC I'll root for ANY ODAC team to win a playoff game! But that doesn't mean I can't objectively evaluate the teams either. I believe W&L doesn't have the same lofty goals that HSC has, so I can enjoy W&L's current run but I'm not real convinced how long it will last. I am more convinced that HSC's current form can stick around for a while. I'm not really convinced that they are going to make it to the next level.

And with that, I have posted WAY too many words on this topic and will leave it to others if they wish to carry on.

[narch]

It has an effect  in NC. There are 2 non-scholarship D1 programs in Davidson and Campbell. In addition, there are 5 private and 4 public D2 schools. It's as much about ego as anything. The kids like saying they are playing D1 or that they received a football scholarship more so than saying they received an academic scholarship.

actually, in addition to the 2 d1aa non-scholarship programs in campbell and davidson, there are 4 public d2's (as mentioned) and 9 private d2's in nc (brevard, catawba, johnson c smith, lenoir rhyne, livingstone, mars hill, shaw, st. augustine's and wingate)...lots of competition - there are also 7 iaa scholarship programs, for what it's worth...

[narch]

And the ODAC teams would run roughshod over...the USAS

while this has proven to be true in the regular season, with the odac winning approximately 65% of the head-to-head meetings with the usasac over the last 6 years, the odac is 0-6 in the ncaa tournament with 2 home losses and 2 shutout losses while the usasac is 1-5 with no shutout losses and 1 home loss...in 3 of the 5 years that the usasac lost a first round game, the opponent who beat them won a second round game (or beyond), while this happened just twice in 6 years for odac opponents (indicating the fact that the usasac played stronger competition during this time period) - over that 6 year period, the average margin of victory in first round games over usasac schools was 19.5 while the average margin of victory over odac schools was 25.7

so, while the odac may be able to claim regular season superiority over the usasac, this conversation centers around post-season success - i think it's clear that neither conference is particularly strong and the top team from the odac has actually had less success on a national level than the top team from the usasac...

[jknezek]

so, while the odac may be able to claim regular season superiority over the usasac, this conversation centers around post-season success - i think it's clear that neither conference is particularly strong and the top team from the odac has actually had less success on a national level than the top team from the usasac...

Never much of a fan of I can lose to my uncle's neighbor's neighbor by fewer points than you can and that makes me better even though I lost to you head to head. H2H is a tiebreaker for a reason, and H2H the ODAC has been superior to the USAS. E&H beat Ferrum this year, HSC rolled CNU. Those are the top 2 teams in the USAS and CNU lost badly (3 scores) to the second team in the ODAC and Ferrum lost, at home, to the second to bottom team in the ODAC. Of course Maryville (team 3) and Methodist (team 4) also lost to E&H, providing 3 of that team's 5 wins. Shenandoah is primarily your saving grace, as they lost to two USAS teams. Then again, it is the Hornets first year in the ODAC coming from... USAS. And they are winless in conference. I can come up with a lot of statistics that show whatever I want, but when you have trump H2H results, that's what matters.

Next year I'm not so sure that will be true as I think Huntingdon is going to be a bear for the USAS. CNU has won the conference pretty regularly? Huntingdon has the ability to steamroll that conference regularly. Bigger, stronger, faster, meaner from what I saw this year.

[tigerfanalso]

Jk

Sorry I got u involved in this conversation. I got your point. If any ODAC is going to compete at a higher level, HSC might be positioned better to do so as compared to other ODAC teams. Recruiting, coaching, resources will determine the outcome and Coach Favret & staff are good at what they do, very good. I'll pull for them regardless but was intersted in your opinion on the ODAC and how it compares. U explained it well. 

[jknezek]

Jk

Sorry I got u involved in this conversation. I got your point. If any ODAC is going to compete at a higher level, HSC might be positioned better to do so as compared to other ODAC teams. Recruiting, coaching, resources will determine the outcome and Coach Favret & staff are good at what they do, very good. I'll pull for them regardless but was intersted in your opinion on the ODAC and how it compares. U explained it well.

You've got it. If anyone is going to pull it off, I think it will be HSC. I'm just not sure I've got the faith that it will happen.

And it's not a big deal. I should know better than to name a specific team as it is always going to ruffle feathers. Really thought I was getting the point across that I admire what HSC has done / is doing, but the next step is a MASSIVELY hard one to make. Should have known better than to name a different conference as well. When i posted that I was wondering if I was going to get blowback from the USAS folks.

Oh well.

[Pat Coleman]

narch, running the comparison back to six years is a pretty long time.

[HSCTiger74]

Jk

Sorry I got u involved in this conversation. I got your point. If any ODAC is going to compete at a higher level, HSC might be positioned better to do so as compared to other ODAC teams. Recruiting, coaching, resources will determine the outcome and Coach Favret & staff are good at what they do, very good. I'll pull for them regardless but was intersted in your opinion on the ODAC and how it compares. U explained it well.

You've got it. If anyone is going to pull it off, I think it will be HSC. I'm just not sure I've got the faith that it will happen.

And it's not a big deal. I should know better than to name a specific team as it is always going to ruffle feathers. Really thought I was getting the point across that I admire what HSC has done / is doing, but the next step is a MASSIVELY hard one to make. Should have known better than to name a different conference as well. When i posted that I was wondering if I was going to get blowback from the USAS folks.

Oh well.

I wasn't able to chime in yesterday, jk, but I thought everything you said was well thought out and right on point. The Tigers have been pretty good for most of the last decade, but they have one more big hump to get over to compete with the elite d3 teams. I'm hopeful they will, but I don't see it yet.

[narch]

H2H is a tiebreaker for a reason, and H2H the ODAC has been superior to the USAS. E&H beat Ferrum this year, HSC rolled CNU. Those are the top 2 teams in the USAS and CNU lost badly (3 scores) to the second team in the ODAC and Ferrum lost, at home, to the second to bottom team in the ODAC. Of course Maryville (team 3) and Methodist (team 4) also lost to E&H, providing 3 of that team's 5 wins. Shenandoah is primarily your saving grace, as they lost to two USAS teams. Then again, it is the Hornets first year in the ODAC coming from... USAS. And they are winless in conference. I can come up with a lot of statistics that show whatever I want, but when you have trump H2H results, that's what matters.

Next year I'm not so sure that will be true as I think Huntingdon is going to be a bear for the USAS. CNU has won the conference pretty regularly? Huntingdon has the ability to steamroll that conference regularly. Bigger, stronger, faster, meaner from what I saw this year.

of course, i could point out that 3 of the 8 odac wins vs. the usasac came at the expense of the last place usasac team (by 3 teams currently tied for 2nd in the odac) and that mu (the #4 team in the usasac) hammered guilford (tied for 2nd in the odac)...we could go on and on...

bottom line is that neither conference is very good, and neither conference has taken that "next step" on a national level (the point of the original post)...it's been 7 years since the odac won a first round game, and 5 years since the usasac did - i'm not sure why the usasac was ever even brought into the discussion other than you odac'ers love to make yourselves feel better by pointing out how much better you are than the usasac - i get it, we do the same in baseball and golf...

i agree that huntingdon is going to be a handful for the usasac...perhaps when they enter the conference they might elevate the usasac above the odac, since it only takes 1 team competing on a national level most of the time for a conference to be considered competitive on a national level...of course, they've got to win the usasac AND win a first round game or two before we can declare the usasac superior

[narch]

narch, running the comparison back to six years is a pretty long time.

going back 3 years really only changes the margin of victory calculation...the odac is still oh'fer, along with the usasac, and the usasac foes advanced beyond the 2nd round twice while the odac foes did so only once...if we go back 2 years, usasac foes advanced beyond the second round once and odac foes did not...

[HSCTiger fan]

Who are the elite teams?

#5 Oshkosh has never been to the playoffs.

#7 Cal Lutheran is 0-3 in their only playoff appearances.

#8 Hobart has not been in the playoffs since 2008 when they lost in the first round

# 9 Widener lost in the first round in both 2007 and 2011. They were 3/7 in 2009.

# 10 Coe was 6/4 last year. But has the BEST playoff record of any of these teams at 1-2.

None of these "next level" teams has won more games than HSC since 2007 and these "next level" teams have combined to win a whopping 1 playoff win with 7 losses.

That means the elite are limited to MU, UWW, Wesley, Linfield, St. T, and MHB.  That represents 2% of the teams playing d3 football.  I see nothing that makes me think that HSC or other ODAC teams cannot compete with the rest of the top 10.

[SUADC]

Who are the elite teams?

#5 Oshkosh has never been to the playoffs.

#7 Cal Lutheran is 0-3 in their only playoff appearances.

#8 Hobart has not been in the playoffs since 2008 when they lost in the first round

# 9 Widener lost in the first round in both 2007 and 2011. They were 3/7 in 2009.

# 10 Coe was 6/4 last year. But has the BEST playoff record of any of these teams at 1-2.

None of these "next level" teams has won more games than HSC since 2007 and these "next level" teams have combined to win a whopping 1 playoff win with 7 losses.

That means the elite are limited to MU, UWW, Wesley, Linfield, St. T, and MHB.  That represents 2% of the teams playing d3 football.  I see nothing that makes me think that HSC or other ODAC teams cannot compete with the rest of the top 10.

I was looking at it that way for a while, but you have to consider the conference in general, how has other teams in each of those teams conference mentioned above faired in previous playoffs (not including UWW, MUC, and Linfield).