FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[hoopstermom]

The easiest path to ODAC glory seems to me is - WL wins their last 2, GC loses only one of two and HSC beats RMC then there's a 3 way tie with GC, WL and HSC.  JK you would get your wish in that WL would share the championship but the playoffs would most likely in this scenario go HSC based on point differential. 

Is point differential the tie-breaker? I've never known. I think it used to be a Rose Bowl rule (which also rules out W&L), am I wrong or was it changed? I remember looking on the ODAC site once and not finding an answer.

I asked one of our coaches about the tiebreaker procedures. That's the information he gave me.

Excellent. +K

Tiebreaker rules from ODAC website http://static.psbin.com/r/x/eu8wwkycewd1bf/13-football.pdf. Just revised.

[jknezek]

Fascinating. Thank you. So there is both a point differential between the tied teams AND a Rose Bowl rule if necessary. I would say H-SC's monster win over Guilford easily puts them in the driver's seat in case of a 3 or more way tie.

+K for digging it out.

[tigerfanalso]

How many teams were tied the year Macon went to Mount Union ?

[jknezek]

How many teams were tied the year Macon went to Mount Union ?

Well, there were 4 teams at 4-2. Catholic, HSC, E&H and RMC. Catholic lost to RMC and Bwater, E&H lost to HSC and Catholic, HSC lost to Catholic and RMC, RMC lost to W&L and E&H. Absolutely hideous. I believe they used a Rose Bowl rule to untangle it that year, but I'm not positive.

Even the page referenced earlier says something about a "ODAC FIVE-Point Tie Breaking Procedure." I'm too lazy to look that up, but it could be the answer. Going by point differential between the four teams would have sent Catholic, not RMC, that year as looking at point differences between the four, Catholic was +15, RMC was +8, HSC was -5, and E&H was -18.

[jknezek]

I'm going to start this post with the following disclaimer, HSC controls its destiny regarding winning the conference. Guilford needs to win out and have HSC lose to win the title. In order to make the playoffs, Guilford either needs HSC to lose, putting the Quakers in on a H2H over RMC, or for there to be a 3 or more way tie at the top of the ODAC. I can't, at this time, find a way for RMC to make the playoffs unless Guilford loses twice while RMC wins out. And I really can't dream up a scenario in which W&L makes the playoffs other than RMC and Guilford both losing twice while the Generals win out. However, there are lots of ways to make 3 and 4 way ties. In the event of a multiple way tie, the H2H results would not be conclusive, so I found the 5 point tiebreaker. From the ODAC Manual, page 25:

"The 5-point tiebreaker works as follows: Point values (in multiples of five) are assigned
to teams according to their order of finish during the regular season. Unless there is a
tie for first, the first place team is awarded a point value equal to 5 times the number of
teams in the league. (If there are six teams in the league, wins over the first-place team
are worth 30 points -
a tie would be 15 points). IMPORTANT: The total number of
points distributed remains the same,regardless of the number of ties. Thus, a six-team league
always has 105 points for distribution, an eight-team league always has 180 points for
distribution. Here are the total points for distribution for the different sizes of leagues:
5 teams = 75 points for distribution
6 teams = 105 points for distribution
7 teams = 140 points for distribution
8 teams = 180 points for distribution
9 teams = 225 points for distribution
10 teams = 275 points for distribution
11 teams = 330 points for distribution
12 teams = 390 points for distribution
If teams are tied for a spot, their point values are equal. However, rather than assigning them a simple
multiple of five, the teams will divide the total points available for the two(or however many) spots they
take up, and that result is their point value"

So, this year will be an 8 team league, there are 180 points for distribution. We'll go out on a hypothetical limb here and say that W&L, HSC, RMC and Guilford all tie at 5-2 in conference. Those 4 teams split the first 130 points equally. So a victory is worth 32.5 points. If Shenandoah goes 3-4 (beats E&H, loses to W&L), Bridgewater 2-5 (loses RMC, beats Catholic), Catholic 2-5 (beats Guilford, loses to Bridgewater), and E&H 1-6 (loses Shenandoah and Guilford), then the points would be as follows.

W&L -- 32.5 (HSC), 20 (Shenandoah), 25 (Bridgewater and Catholic), 5 (E&H) = 82.5 pts
HSC -- 65 (RMC and Guilford), 25 (Bridgewater and Catholic), 5 (E&H) = 95 pts
RMC -- 32.5 (W&L), 20 (Shenandoah), 25 (Bridgewater and Catholic), 5 (E&H) = 82.5 pts
Guilford -- 65 (W&L and RMC), 20 (Shenandoah), 12.5 (Bridgewater), 5 (E&H) = 102.5 pts

This would send Guilford to the playoffs. I didn't spend too much time on this, so I could have something wrong. Basically it depends on who you lost to, and Shenandoah finishing above either E&H or Catholic (one of whom has to beat Guilford to create the scenario) would send Guilford through. If whoever beats Guilford finishes ahead of Shenandoah, then HSC would go to the playoffs. So the conference bid is awarded to the team who took the WORST loss among the remaining tied competitors.

ONLY if this process is tied in points will it go to record versus finish, which would give you the same answer in this example, and THEN point differential, and only if THAT is tied will it go to a Rose Bowl rule. At least they created a solid series of contingency rules!



EDIT -- BOLDED SECTION MODIFIED TO CORRECT THE ERROR HSCTIGER fan pointed out. Fair warning, there are probably more.

[HSCTiger fan]

I'm going to start this post with the following disclaimer, HSC controls its destiny regarding winning the conference. Guilford needs to win out and have HSC lose to share the title, but even then HSC goes to the playoffs based on H2H. In order to make the playoffs, Guilford either needs HSC to lose twice, putting the Quakers in on a H2H over RMC, or for there to be a 3 or more way tie at the top of the ODAC. I can't, at this time, find a way for RMC to make the playoffs unless Guilford loses twice while RMC wins out. And I really can't dream up a scenario in which W&L makes the playoffs other than RMC and Guilford both losing twice while the Generals win out. However, there are lots of ways to make 3 and 4 way ties. In the event of a multiple way tie, the H2H results would not be conclusive, so I found the 5 point tiebreaker. From the ODAC Manual, page 25:

"The 5-point tiebreaker works as follows: Point values (in multiples of five) are assigned
to teams according to their order of finish during the regular season. Unless there is a
tie for first, the first place team is awarded a point value equal to 5 times the number of
teams in the league. (If there are six teams in the league, wins over the first-place team
are worth 30 points -
a tie would be 15 points). IMPORTANT: The total number of
points distributed remains the same,regardless of the number of ties. Thus, a six-team league
always has 105 points for distribution, an eight-team league always has 180 points for
distribution. Here are the total points for distribution for the different sizes of leagues:
5 teams = 75 points for distribution
6 teams = 105 points for distribution
7 teams = 140 points for distribution
8 teams = 180 points for distribution
9 teams = 225 points for distribution
10 teams = 275 points for distribution
11 teams = 330 points for distribution
12 teams = 390 points for distribution
If teams are tied for a spot, their point values are equal. However, rather than assigning them a simple
multiple of five, the teams will divide the total points available for the two(or however many) spots they
take up, and that result is their point value"

So, this year will be an 8 team league, there are 180 points for distribution. We'll go out on a hypothetical limb here and say that W&L, HSC, RMC and Guilford all tie at 5-2 in conference. Those 4 teams split the first 130 points equally. So a victory is worth 32.5 points. If Shenandoah goes 3-4 (beats E&H, loses to W&L), Bridgewater 2-5 (loses RMC, beats Catholic), Catholic 2-5 (beats Guilford, loses to Bridgewater), and E&H 1-6 (loses Shenandoah and Guilford), then the points would be as follows.

W&L -- 32.5 (HSC), 20 (Shenandoah), 25 (Bridgewater and Catholic), 5 (E&H) = 82.5 pts
HSC -- 65 (RMC and Guilford), 25 (Bridgewater and Catholic), 5 (E&H) = 95 pts
RMC -- 32.5 (W&L), 20 (Shenandoah), 25 (Bridgewater and Catholic), 5 (E&H) = 82.5 pts
Guilford -- 65 (W&L and RMC), 20 (Shenandoah), 12.5 (Bridgewater), 5 (E&H) = 102.5 pts

This would send Guilford to the playoffs. I didn't spend too much time on this, so I could have something wrong. Basically it depends on who you lost to, and Shenandoah finishing above either E&H or Catholic (one of whom has to beat Guilford to create the scenario) would send Guilford through. If whoever beats Guilford finishes ahead of Shenandoah, then HSC would go to the playoffs. So the conference bid is awarded to the team who took the WORST loss among the remaining tied competitors.

ONLY if this process is tied in points will it go to record versus finish, which would give you the same answer in this example, and THEN point differential, and only if THAT is tied will it go to a Rose Bowl rule. At least they created a solid series of contingency rules!

Jk I know you put a lot of work into this but if GC wins out they only have 1 conference loss. HSC also has 1 loss another HSC loss with 2 GC wins makes GC the champ. If RMC wins out and Guilford loses once RMC is the champ.

[jknezek]

Jk I know you put a lot of work into this but if GC wins out they only have 1 conference loss. HSC also has 1 loss another HSC loss with 2 GC wins makes GC the champ.

I knew there would be mistakes. I could have spent hours on this and still come up with a few. Good catch. If that's as far as you got, keep reading, you'll find more! For example, the next statement should mention Guilford needs HSC to lose once, not twice. I'm going to correct the original, but hopefully your corrections will still show.

[tigerfanalso]

Just another illustration has to how crazy the ODAC is this year.

From my prospective the only thing I focus on is HSC controls it's destiny which should be a strength. Win the last two games and nothing else matters. One week into a three week must win situation.

[jknezek]

Just another illustration has to how crazy the ODAC is this year.

From my prospective the only thing I focus on is HSC controls it's destiny which should be a strength. Win the last two games and nothing else matters. One week into a three week must win situation.

Yep. That's why I led with that. It is, by far, the most important piece of information. The rest was just for fun and because someone was kind enough to post a link to the tiebreaker info. Which then raised more questions I wanted answers to, which led me to make a way too long and overly complicated post that will probably be irrelevant since... HSC controls its own destiny.

[tigerfanalso]

Jk

You're the best. Your energy is rubbing off on this old man but your detail is overwhelming. I guess that's why you got into and out of W&L !!!!!

[jknezek]

Jk

You're the best. Your energy is rubbing off on this old man but your detail is overwhelming. I guess that's why you got into and out of W&L !!!!!

I'm absolutely convinced I got into W&L because I was the only one from my h.s., until that time, to ever apply. They were simply trying to broaden the application base and dipped the standards to let me in. As far as I know it didn't work since I don't know anyone else from my h.s. that applied in the time I was there or just after. Who knows by now? I got out of W&L because, as my wife says, I'm stubborn like a jacka$$ and don't quit at anything...

[tigerfanalso]

Jk

Game time is getting ever so close. You still picking HSC over your Gennies by 14 to 17 points ?

[jknezek]

Jk

Game time is getting ever so close. You still picking HSC over your Gennies by 14 to 17 points ?

Yep. I'm hopeful the Generals will pull off an upset, but since I'd label it an upset, logic says HSC should take the prize. The 14-17 points is just because the Generals offense has struggled so much. The defense, while better, just can't be on the field for 35-40 minutes and not give up 35 points.

All that being said... TAKE THOSE TIGERS DOWN A PEG GENERALS!

[hasanova]

Jk

Game time is getting ever so close. You still picking HSC over your Gennies by 14 to 17 points ?

Yep. I'm hopeful the Generals will pull off an upset, but since I'd label it an upset, logic says HSC should take the prize. The 14-17 points is just because the Generals offense has struggled so much. The defense, while better, just can't be on the field for 35-40 minutes and not give up 35 points.

All that being said... TAKE THOSE TIGERS DOWN A PEG GENERALS!

Sorry, Tiger fans, but pure unadulterated selfishness says I have to root for a W&L victory. 

[tigerfanalso]

Hasa

No big deal. HSC is use to having the fan base of the other ODAC schools pull against them. I understand your position and would be doing the same thing if I was in your shoes. Quakers going to have a tough time up in the capital city. Good luck.
Hopefully it will not matter what GC does the remainder of the season but we all know the ODAC seems to be a little weird week over week.