FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[jknezek]

Well I sent an email to Commissioner Bankston about setting up a post season challenge with a neighboring conference. I like the idea, figured I'd do a small part to see if it's possible. Really would have liked to have had Guilford and Maryville squaring off this weekend. Or Guilford and Berry/Centre.

[hasanova]

Just curious Pat, how would you compare them?  Your website said GC was a coin flip away from being in.

You really can't.  It is admittedly a total judgement call.  I think the point is that it's a little asinine for hasanova to say that this is a "classic case of a team that got robbed" (direct quote) with the justification for that being that Whitworth's loss came by 42 points and Guilford's loss came by 3 points.  Since you can't compare those things with any reasonable certainty, just like Pat said...it's a coin flip.  Not a "classic case of a team that got robbed."

I mean, hasanova was also complaining about St. John Fisher getting in with three losses (they didn't), so we have to take those comments with a grain of salt.  But still.  Come on.

I've already posted that I made a mistake on SJF ... I misread something somewhere.  Sorry, guys. 

[hasanova]

d3football.com says Whitworth and Guilford had nearly identical resumes and I agree, but Whitworth lost to Linfield 52-10 and Guilford lost their only game 20-17 in the rain and on the road when our star QB was knocked out with a possible concussion early in the second quarter and the W&L Generals hit a school-record 51-yard FG.  I understand LC is RR #2 and W&L is RR #5, but this is a classic case of a team that got robbed.

I'd say it's pretty clear Linfield is better than Whitworth.  I don't think that's so obvious in Guilford's case with W&L.  I also don't understand how at-large teams such as ONU got in with 2 losses and SJF got in with three!  They say life isn't fair and here's your proof.  Boo NCAA ... you blew it!  Linfield and Whitworth are paired again because of the NCAA's inane travel rules. No offense meant to Whitworth, but I'd like to see Linfield lay another beatdown on the Pirates just to prove a team that gets trounced by 42 is probably not going to fare very well in a rematch.

C'est la vie.   On to hoops for me.

Yeah, but man, Guilford didn't play anyone nearly on the level of Linfield. Congrats on not losing by 42 but good teams lose to Linfield and St. Thomas and Mount Union and UW-Firstplaceteamnamehere by 42 points. That's what the rest of D-III is like -- if you just play in the ODAC/USAC pond, you might get away with some things that you don't when playing a top seed type.

Linfeild, St Thomas, MU, UW is not a representation of "what the rest of D-III is like". If anything those teams are the direct opposite of what the rest of D-III is like.

Well, either way, comparing a result vs. W&L and someone else's result vs. Linfield solely on margin of defeat is just ridiculous.

I don't think it was solely for that, but rarely am I called ridiculous.  Everyone knows Linfield is a perennial Top 5 team and, well, W&L isn't yet.  I'm not knocking Whitworth for losing to Linfield by 42 ... probably about 235 other DIII teams might also.  SOS is very close between Whitworth and Guilford.  In fact, I think Guilford's was .493 to Whitworth's .492.  I'm sure ONU had a tough run in the OAC, but they did have two losses.  I've waited 45 years for a shot a the playoffs ... please forgive my initial disappointment for thinking this team deserved a shot.  I'm well aware that Olivet and Wartburg and others have the same thoughts ... especially when they see the occasional 6-4 conference winner in the field.  Those are the rules and I accept it.   Good luck to the 32 who are in, especially W&L.       

[sigma one]

I was a college administrator (oops!) for much much longer than today's college students have been around.  As a direct report to a president of a college, several college's actually, I can only add that we would discuss an issue for hours in a staff meeting.  After deliberating, we would decide which way to go:  hard discussions, disagreements, finally a decision led by a president who had him/herself wide experience in higher education..  We did the best we could, and with far more information than any other constituency.  Then, almost always we would be accused of some sort of either stupidity, bias, collusion, or . . .and this by faculty, students, and occasionally alumni.  Good people, experienced in higher education, people who wanted only the best and who thought hard, who the moment they became administrators had an IQ decline of 50 points and were overnight venal and much more.  By the way, given different perspectives, we were very occasionally wrong and altered our decisions.
      You can identify the analogy to the selection committee.  Good people, trying to do their best with at as much information (at least?) as the rest of us.  You can think they have an agenda, but even if one of them does the others almost certainly don't.  You can think they made a mistake, and that's legitimate, or not, and year over year someone will think they erred.  (Is this year the exception, nah?).  Every year, passionate fans of bubble teams disagree with the committee when THEIR team is eliminated.  Fair enough;  sometimes even those not associated with a particular school will think the committee made a mistake.  All part of the bargain  And maybe the committed did get it wrong when we evaluate all the criteria--at least in the way we want the criteria applied.  Even the criteria as established are, of course, subject to reasonable interpretation, theirs and ours.  Reasonable people can look at the same numbers and come to a reasonably different conclusion.
     A couple of years ago I went on a rant, now to my chagrin and embarrassment (so mea culpa, as a fan I am not immune), when St John Fisher was selected rather than my Wabash team.   How could this be; how could this happen?   Then, SJF went on to win 2 playoff games and advance to the quarter finals.  In retrospect, the committee made a good choice.  Could Wabash have done as well?  We will never know.  But SJH winning those two games justified their choice.  (Not to say that this year will play out the same way.)
     The debates about who and how--great.  But let's not create a scenario that includes, gee, it's hard to deliver bad news, etc. 

[jknezek]

     The debates about who and how--great.  But let's not create a scenario that includes, gee, it's hard to deliver bad news, etc.

Obviously you can keep debating this all you want. Pat said according to interviews he's done, that type of discussion DOES come up. So at the very least it exists in peoples minds and that will affect voting subconsciously. I have little more use for the hypotheticals. I've seen it happen in other environments so I know people just aren't as altruistic as you want them to be. It is what it is and I think Whitworth caught a bit of a lucky break in being above UWP. Why that happened we'll never know. I have my theory and it involves people being imperfect. I think that's a pretty accepted fact. You can choose to believe otherwise.

Being imperfect doesn't mean they did it with ill intent or horribly undermined the process or have no morals. It just means they are human. In this case, I really think it benefited Whitworth because there is little other reason for votes to have gone the way they did per the criteria. Feel free to disagree but you have no ammunition to change my mind. I have a pretty good idea about people and Pat provided some good second hand evidence that it is a legitimate thought, even if we will never know if that is what happened this time.

Your mileage may vary...

[ExTartanPlayer]

Well I sent an email to Commissioner Bankston about setting up a post season challenge with a neighboring conference. I like the idea, figured I'd do a small part to see if it's possible. Really would have liked to have had Guilford and Maryville squaring off this weekend. Or Guilford and Berry/Centre.

I'm trying to do the same with the PAC office.

[jknezek]

Well I sent an email to Commissioner Bankston about setting up a post season challenge with a neighboring conference. I like the idea, figured I'd do a small part to see if it's possible. Really would have liked to have had Guilford and Maryville squaring off this weekend. Or Guilford and Berry/Centre.

I'm trying to do the same with the PAC office.

Commissioner Bankston's email is listed on the ODAC site. Given the generic nature of it, I'd be surprised if it is his "true" inbox, but at least I feel like I did the small thing I was capable of doing.

[Pat Coleman]

Playing the USA South is not likely to improve the ODAC. I would bet several schools, led by W&L, would prefer an agreement with the SAA.

[jknezek]

Playing the USA South is not likely to improve the ODAC. I would bet several schools, led by W&L, would prefer an agreement with the SAA.

I agree. But that could be a travel issue for some schools. Hendrix and Millsaps are a long way from Shenandoah. If all you are talking about is 2vs2 and 3vs3, the USASAC isn't a problem. Maryville would be fine and let's face it, the next ODAC school after Guilford is H-SC at a whopping 6-4. Not real attractive either.

[jknezek]

Here's an interesting thought. W&L is hosting the DIII field hockey championships this weekend. I had no idea. It is possible they committed to using the football stadium for that purpose and couldn't apply to host a first round game. It is also possible that with the construction going on, generally in the vicinity of the field hockey, football, soccer field area, W&L felt they couldn't host both. Generally I'd say it wouldn't be a problem, but that is a big construction area.

Pat -- is there a way to know if a team applied to host? I'd be very curious.

[HSCTiger fan]

Playing the USA South is not likely to improve the ODAC. I would bet several schools, led by W&L, would prefer an agreement with the SAA.

I agree. Why would we want to set up a post season arrangement with USA South?  Everyone already plays them in the OOC.  Also the next school after Guilford is a EH at 7-3. 

[jknezek]

Playing the USA South is not likely to improve the ODAC. I would bet several schools, led by W&L, would prefer an agreement with the SAA.

I agree. Why would we want to set up a post season arrangement with USA South?  Everyone already plays them in the OOC.  Also the next school after Guilford is a EH at 7-3.

Not in conference play. H-SC holds the tie break h2h.

[Pat Coleman]

Here's an interesting thought. W&L is hosting the DIII field hockey championships this weekend. I had no idea. It is possible they committed to using the football stadium for that purpose and couldn't apply to host a first round game. It is also possible that with the construction going on, generally in the vicinity of the field hockey, football, soccer field area, W&L felt they couldn't host both. Generally I'd say it wouldn't be a problem, but that is a big construction area.

Pat -- is there a way to know if a team applied to host? I'd be very curious.

I was told that they would be given the same exception to host a later game as the one UW-Oshkosh used because it was hosting the national cross country championships this weekend. I don't believe the facility was an issue.

[tigerFanAlso2]

Jk

Why spend the money and risk injury to play a post season game that basically means nothing ?
I'm certain you have thoughts or you would not bring the idea to the table.
 

[jknezek]

Jk

Why spend the money and risk injury to play a post season game that basically means nothing ?
I'm certain you have thoughts or you would not bring the idea to the table.

My thoughts are the kids play because they want to and enjoy it. So you'd assume they'd want another game if they could have one. Recognizing a team that had a good season with another game should be a good thing. Is there a risk of injury? Sure. But for the seniors it is one more chance to lace them up, for the underclassmen it's one more week of learning, practice and experience. For recruiting it's a post season notch in the belt. I can't imagine Guilford's excellent senior class wouldn't trade the risk of injury for one more game. One more chance to show the NCAA and everyone else what they were made of.

Where I think the ECAC went wrong is in not making it a rivalry event, just making it another game. Put the conference pride on those teams by matching them with another conference year after year. Match 1 to 1 and 2 to 2 so it is like versus like. Talk to them about how it looks come next year if they are in the mix for an NCAA berth to be known as the better conference. Foster the intensity and the game will mean something, even if it really doesn't look like it should.

But primarily, just use it to recognize those teams that had good seasons, but fell just short of the conference championship or an NCAA berth. Make it part of the football banquet and conference awards. It is very much a "next best thing", but if you did a good job with it, I have to believe that is better than nothing for kids that simply love to play.