FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[HSCTiger fan]

No, I agree RMC should be #1 preseason, in fact I really don't know who will be #2 (E&H ?) or #3 and if those teams can poise a challenge. odac could be weaker in 2017

The ODAC was terrible this year. HSC and EH both lost to Ferrum, BC lost to Apprentice, HSC and WL lost to BC, SU couldn't tackle, CUA was typical CUA and GC lost 6 in a row in the worst ODAC I've seen since I have been watching (2010). I cannot imagine a worse ODAC next year.

[tigerFanAlso2]

ready or not, the odac could be no better in 2017 than it was in 2016. Which team(s) are going to improve drastically, or at all, year over year ? Which teams will be worse ?   

[Pat Coleman]

At least there will be addition by subtraction. 

[jknezek]

All ODAC teams are out. RMC dominates with 8 selections to the first team offense and defense, followed by 4 each at W&L and E&H, 3 at Shenandoah and Guilford, 2 each at H-SC and Bridgewater.

Of RMC's 4 offensive selections, only the senior kicker isn't coming back. All 4 of the RMC defensive selections are seniors. W&L's 4 total first team selections are a pair each of Juniors and Seniors, E&H sports 3 seniors and a sophomore, Shenandoah's 3 selections are all on offense (surprise, surprise) but include soph QB Hayden Bauserman, while this is senior RB Tre Frederick's last year paired with a junior WR.

Guilford's 3 selections are 2 juniors and a senior, while H-SC placed a senior WR and punter onto the team. Bridgewater's 2 selections are a senior tight end and a sophomore on defense. Catholic was shut out of the first team in their final year in the conference.

[jknezek]

At least there will be addition by subtraction. 

Perhaps. Depending on if NNA becomes a defacto 8th team.

[y_jack_lok]

All ODAC teams are out. RMC dominates with 8 selections to the first team offense and defense, followed by 4 each at W&L and E&H, 3 at Shenandoah and Guilford, 2 each at H-SC and Bridgewater.

Of RMC's 4 offensive selections, only the senior kicker isn't coming back. All 4 of the RMC defensive selections are seniors. W&L's 4 total first team selections are a pair each of Juniors and Seniors, E&H sports 3 seniors and a sophomore, Shenandoah's 3 selections are all on offense (surprise, surprise) but include soph QB Hayden Bauserman, while this is senior RB Tre Frederick's last year paired with a junior WR.

Guilford's 3 selections are 2 juniors and a senior, while H-SC placed a senior WR and punter onto the team. Bridgewater's 2 selections are a senior tight end and a sophomore on defense. Catholic was shut out of the first team in their final year in the conference.

Frederick is a sophomore.

[jknezek]

All ODAC teams are out. RMC dominates with 8 selections to the first team offense and defense, followed by 4 each at W&L and E&H, 3 at Shenandoah and Guilford, 2 each at H-SC and Bridgewater.

Of RMC's 4 offensive selections, only the senior kicker isn't coming back. All 4 of the RMC defensive selections are seniors. W&L's 4 total first team selections are a pair each of Juniors and Seniors, E&H sports 3 seniors and a sophomore, Shenandoah's 3 selections are all on offense (surprise, surprise) but include soph QB Hayden Bauserman, while this is senior RB Tre Frederick's last year paired with a junior WR.

Guilford's 3 selections are 2 juniors and a senior, while H-SC placed a senior WR and punter onto the team. Bridgewater's 2 selections are a senior tight end and a sophomore on defense. Catholic was shut out of the first team in their final year in the conference.

Frederick is a sophomore.

Yeah. I paired the line wrong. Shenandoah's Senior RB is Cedric Delaney. I put the wrong name down on the comment.

[y_jack_lok]

^^^ I figured it was something like that. Just thought you'd want to set the record straight. 

[HSCTiger fan]

The All-ODAC team is odd to say the least. Nearly half of GCs staters made all-conference.  GC placed 10 players on the 3 teams yet somehow they went 1-6 in league play finished 7th in ODAC, AND lost their last 6 games of the season.  By comparison, EH finished 2nd in ODAC and went 5-2 in ODAC had only 7 players.

6 RBs made the 3 teams. The top 5 rushers in league play made all ODAC. But for some reason the league skipped the 6th place rusher (HSC DeMasi) and went to 7th (WL Hinkle). In addition to being 6th in the league in rushing DeMasi was 8th in the league in all purpose yards. (Hinkle was 13th)  DeMasi and Kube (EH) were the only players in top 10 in all-purpose yards to not make All Conference.

The league gave all-ODAC first team honors the the QB that finished 2nd in attempts, 2nd in completions, 2nd in yards thrown, and 2nd in yards per game to a very deserving Bauserman (SU). The QB that finished first in those categories did not even make the team (HSC's Cobb).

All-Conference matters to the kids. If for no other reason, the coaches should take the time to get it right.

[jknezek]

The All-ODAC team is odd to say the least. Nearly half of GCs staters made all-conference.  GC placed 10 players on the 3 teams yet somehow they went 1-6 in league play finished 7th in ODAC, AND lost their last 6 games of the season.  By comparison, EH finished 2nd in ODAC and went 5-2 in ODAC had only 7 players.

6 RBs made the 3 teams. The top 5 rushers in league play made all ODAC. But for some reason the league skipped the 6th place rusher (HSC DeMasi) and went to 7th (WL Hinkle). In addition to being 6th in the league in rushing DeMasi was 8th in the league in all purpose yards. (Hinkle was 13th)  DeMasi and Kube (EH) were the only players in top 10 in all-purpose yards to not make All Conference.

The league gave all-ODAC first team honors the the QB that finished 2nd in attempts, 2nd in completions, 2nd in yards thrown, and 2nd in yards per game to a very deserving Bauserman (SU). The QB that finished first in those categories did not even make the team (HSC's Cobb).

All-Conference matters to the kids. If for no other reason, the coaches should take the time to get it right.

DeMasi's YPC were well below anyone else on the list. Hinkle averaged 6.4 ypc, more than anyone else in the top 6, while DeMasi averaged 4.1, more than a half a yard less than anyone else in the top 14. It's not just a matter of how often you get the ball, but  how effective you are with it. He does add more passing yards, but again, with about 7.8 ypc, it was the lowest effectiveness in the top 30+ receivers in the league. So yeah, a lot of targets and therefore a lot of yards, but not very efficient this year. (Just using conference stats, I don't think they should be using non-conf numbers for the all-conf team because it's not apples to apples)

As for Cobb, again you have to look at all the things a QB does. Yes he out passed everyone in the league. More yards, more attempts, and a very acceptable completion percentage. But with 14 interceptions, only Catholic's QB, A Ros with 8, had half that many! Bauserman and Miller, the two QBs that are closer to apples to apples with Cobb had 4 and 5 INTs respectively in conference. That matters. Killing 14 drives in a 7 game conference season is two a game. That's painful. Add in that Miller's completion percentage was marginally better in conference, as were his yards per attempt, and I think you see the coaches going with efficiency as opposed to pure volume. W&L's Nelson, second team all-ODAC, is a different animal.

As for pure numbers per team, I tend to really only look at the First Team when seeing if it lines up with team performance. In that case it is pretty close though 3 at Guilford looks a bit high until you realize they are an offensive lineman, a defensive lineman, and a LB. Not exactly the glory positions that shift a team's win percentage too much all by themselves.

With 6 selections on the second team I think Guilford is probably over-represented based on their play, but I'm just not going to sweat it. W&L had the best rushing attack in the league, one of the best in the country, and yet no first or second team All-ODAC selections went to W&L running backs. Why? Because they spread out the carries. So W&L has 3 on the third team. I'd take Hollerith and Hinkle with anyone in the league except Delaney. But stats wise? They were sunk by sharing so much. Hunter Causey at Guilford and Malivai Barker at Bridgewater had the second and third most carries in the league behind Frederick. Hollerith was more efficient than Frederick and Barker, but with 11 fewer carries than Barker, and almost 30 fewer than Causey, he just didn't get the numbers. Delaney was actually my pick for best in the league, with a large number of carries, 114, and still a 6.2 average. Hinkle was more efficient, with 6.4ypc, but with only 76 carries it's just not enough.

W&L had 6 of the top 19 rushers. Take J Malm's 7 carries, Matt Sgro's 21 carries, and Brand's 49 carries and split them among Hollerith and Hinkle and you have 77 more carries for Hollerith and Hinkle. Split them evenly, with those guys ypc, and both are going to be either first or second teamers instead of third team.

[HSCTiger fan]

I agree that with QBs you have to to look at all the things a QB does.

Cobb actually had 15  turnovers in conference as he had a fumble to go with his 14 interceptions. Miller had 4 fumbles. That's Cobb 15 turnovers to Miller's 9. Advantage Miller.

Cobb had 14 TD passes, 4 rushing TDs, 1 rushing extra point. Miller only had 11, 3 and 0.  That's 110 to 84 in scoring. Advantage Cobb.

Cobb beat Miller head to head.  Advantage Cobb.

Cobb out threw Miller by over 300 yards. Advantage Cobb.

Cobb had 33 more completions. Advantage Cobb

A virtual tie in completion rate 58.6 to 57.9. 

A virtual tie in Y/A 6.9 to 6.6.

Miller was the most sacked QB in the league who rushed 55 time for negative 26 yards. (Yet 3 Quaker offensive linemen still made all-ODAC.) Advantage Cobb.

A good QB makes those around him better. Cobb had 2 WRs and a TE that made all conference and Miller had 1.  Advantage Cobb.

The biggest stat that matters is wins. Cobb 3 Miller 1.  Advantage Cobb.

I totally agree that SU's Bauserman was the league's best QB this year. But there are very few ways to defend Miller over Cobb.

[jknezek]

I have no problem with Miller over Cobb. Those TOs are brutal. And I think it's funny that wherever Miller does better you say it is a "virtual tie". When you go with the averages instead of raw, sling it around the most, numbers, Miller has an advantage.

Cobb out threw Miller? Awesome. He got more chances and completed fewer on average. He got more yards? Great, he also threw more times. I get that you want this to read virtual tie, but it's not. Cobb did better in terms of efficiency. If you want to say your guy is better because he slung the ball around the most, that's one way of looking at it. But Cobb simply wasn't as efficient. He didn't take care of the ball very well. He didn't have better ypa. He didn't have a better completion rate. These are facts, not "virtual ties." If Cobb took care of the ball he would have completed a few more passes and I think he'd have been here. But he didn't.

As for points, I do think Cobb has a slim advantage. For the head to head, I don't think that matters as much. Guilford's offense actually put up more yards than H-SC's and had more TOP. Granted that offensive advantage was rushing, but if that was the game plan, then so be it. Both QBs were pretty hapless in that game, 7-27 for Guilford, 13-31 for H-SC. Better for Cobb, but not really good on either side. Guilford took 10 penalties for 110 yards, H-SC 2 for 10 yards. Unless those were mostly on Miller, I'm just not laying the head to head on him. H2H is a team thing, not solely a qb thing. Don't like this measure.

No I don't understand how 3 Quaker lineman made all-ODAC. I'm with you there. And while QB is important, I'm not willing to put team wins as the deciding factor in QB play. Otherwise we should have Viera on the board somewhere and I'm glad that didn't happen. Don't like this measure.

As for making those around you better, Miller took a freshman WR to second team all-ODAC. That's pretty good. Is that more impressive than taking a senior to first-team? And would we not give Miller some credit for being a threat that allowed Causey to rush for so many yards? Something that Cobb apparently didn't do as well with his running game? I really dislike this reasoning by the way. It's not measurable.

This is all slippery slope stuff. And I just don't think the coaches went that route. I think they looked at efficiency. Cobb just didn't quite measure up, and I think the vast majority of that is in the TOs.

[tigerFanAlso2]

I saw no QB at HSC this season deserving of making all league. Way too loses/way to many interceptions.
In fact I only saw one QB that looked pretty good to me and he didn't look that good, we just made him look better than he is.
I really don't like all league selections/football is the ultimate team game. Happy Thanksgiving to all.

[HSCTiger fan]

I simply do not agree.  Had Cobb completed 2 more passes his completion percentage would have been identical to Miller's. Had Cobb thrown for 71 more yards his Y/A would have been identical. These are the statistical categories that I called a virtual tie.  I get it, turnovers killed his chance to be all-ODAC. Slinging the ball around has always been Favret's game plan. Guilford's game plan may have been more balanced but the effectiveness of the plan was not very good.  If you want to penalize Cobb for the turnovers that's fine.  He has to own them.  I'm sure he's done nothing more than congratulate his teammates that were all ODAC and not think twice about his being left off the team.  I am not Cobb.  If we are to hold his turnovers at such high regard then why not Nelson's?  He had 10 turnovers in just 138 touches.  9 fumbles in just 82 carries!  Had he had as many touches as Cobb he would have had 24 turnovers in 7 games.  Nelson earned all-ODAC 2nd team for his team going 5-2.  Had WL finished 1-6 he's not even a consideration.  He had a much better year statistically in 2014 (WL went 2-5) than this year.  He was not even a thought when it came time to vote for all-conference. 

So don't tell me wins don't matter.  I'll bet there's NEVER been a QB with only 1 conference win to earn all-ODAC.  Miller's slight edge in efficiency over Cobb is out weighed by 3 wins and thrown touchdowns.  If Cobb's turnovers were a disqualifier then so should Nelson's. 

By the way last year WL goes 10-0 and Nelson makes all-ODAC with 17 turnovers! 

[jknezek]

I simply do not agree.  Had Cobb completed 2 more passes his completion percentage would have been identical to Miller's. Had Cobb thrown for 71 more yards his Y/A would have been identical. These are the statistical categories that I called a virtual tie.  I get it, turnovers killed his chance to be all-ODAC. Slinging the ball around has always been Favret's game plan. Guilford's game plan may have been more balanced but the effectiveness of the plan was not very good.  If you want to penalize Cobb for the turnovers that's fine.  He has to own them.  I'm sure he's done nothing more than congratulate his teammates that were all ODAC and not think twice about his being left off the team.  I am not Cobb.  If we are to hold his turnovers at such high regard then why not Nelson's?  He had 10 turnovers in just 138 touches.  9 fumbles in just 82 carries!  Had he had as many touches as Cobb he would have had 24 turnovers in 7 games.  Nelson earned all-ODAC 2nd team for his team going 5-2.  Had WL finished 1-6 he's not even a consideration.  He had a much better year statistically in 2014 (WL went 2-5) than this year.  He was not even a thought when it came time to vote for all-conference. 

So don't tell me wins don't matter.  I'll bet there's NEVER been a QB with only 1 conference win to earn all-ODAC.  Miller's slight edge in efficiency over Cobb is out weighed by 3 wins and thrown touchdowns.  If Cobb's turnovers were a disqualifier then so should Nelson's. 

By the way last year WL goes 10-0 and Nelson makes all-ODAC with 17 turnovers!

First off we all know option teams have lots of fumbles. That's part and parcel of being an option team and the high risk pitch. Yes he had 82 rushes, but many of those fumbles came on pitches, which don't count as carries unless the QB keeps. So your touches comparison is not apples for apples. Nelson touched the ball on every play from center where he was in the game, just like every other starting QB in the league. The other flaw in your thinking is Nelson LOST 4 fumbles. And had 1 pick. He had 5 TOs. Not 15 like Cobb. Again, Cobb ended 15 drives versus 5 for Nelson, that's apples for apples. That's important and there is simply no way to gloss that over.

Now, to go back to your beginning statement, IF he had completed 2 more passes. He didn't. IF he had 70+ more yards. He didn't. It goes both ways. If Miller had thrown for 261 more yards he would have had the same amount as Cobb. But he didn't. At 6.9 ypa, and 60 more attempts to EQUAL Cobb's attempts, Miller would have had 420 more yards. So IF he had thrown as many passes as Cobb, theoretically he would have throw for 159 more yards than Cobb. So those IF games you are playing are a waste of time because they work both ways. Sorry.

Wins do matter to an extent. I don't love the idea, but they do. However, they aren't the trump card. Again, we don't see Viera anywhere near these awards. Yes 3-4 is better than 1-6. But neither QB's team covered themselves in ODAC glory. So I think the coaches just didn't worry too much about wins this time around.

A good QB on a dominant team hits these honors. A mediocre QB on a strong team doesn't (Viera). With the rest of the teams snarled up, wins mattered less than actual performance (despite 10-0 and the best rushing attack in the nation last year, not one member of W&L's backfield was first team All-ODAC. Wins matter, but not all important), and clearly the coaches looked more at efficiency than raw numbers. Rail against that all you want, but that is what happened and I don't have any problem with it.