FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[wally_wabash]

I don't really understand non-scholarship D1 football. What does that really mean ? Davidson would struggle to win the ODAC or most other D3 conferences.
D1 non-scholarship football is really D3 football advertising itself as something not D3, right, at least in Davidson's case.

I think that's an oversimplification.  Davidson might be a really bad team in the Pioneer League, but the average and better teams there would be overwhelming to all but the very best of D3. 

[tigerFanAlso2]

WW

Thanks for the feedback. Your boys going to rebound this year ?

[wally_wabash]

WW

Thanks for the feedback. Your boys going to rebound this year ?

I think Wabash will be in the hunt for the league title.  Have to play at Wittenberg which is tough.  And Wabash is going to be a year younger on defense in a league where offenses are really exploding.  If new starters on defense get comfortable quickly, could be a pretty good year.  But we'll see.  Should be a fun year in the NCAC.  Good luck to your guys down in Farmville!

[hasanova]

I don't really understand non-scholarship D1 football. What does that really mean ? Davidson would struggle to win the ODAC or most other D3 conferences.
D1 non-scholarship football is really D3 football advertising itself as something not D3, right, at least in Davidson's case.

I think that's an oversimplification.  Davidson might be a really bad team in the Pioneer League, but the average and better teams there would be overwhelming to all but the very best of D3.

Wally_wabash is right.  Guilford played both Davidson and Jacksonville last year on the road.  I saw the games in person ... I am telling you, both the Wildcats and the Dolphins would have probably run the table in the ODAC last season.  The difference in speed, size and strength is obvious when you see them in person.

[tigerFanAlso2]

WW

Hopefully we can revisit the OOC between Wabash and HSC once both programs rebound. Good luck to the LG's this year.


Hasa

Thanks for your input. GC playing Davidson this year ?

[wally_wabash]

WW

Hopefully we can revisit the OOC between Wabash and HSC once both programs rebound. Good luck to the LG's this year.

Absolutely.  I would love to see the Gentlemen's Classic be a recurring thing and cycle onto the schedule every 6-8 years or so. 

[hasanova]

WW

Hopefully we can revisit the OOC between Wabash and HSC once both programs rebound. Good luck to the LG's this year.


Hasa

Thanks for your input. GC playing Davidson this year ?

Yes, the Quakers visit Davidson at 7 pm on Sept. 15 after Huntingdon and Methodist the first two weeks.  Ferrum fills the Jacksonville spot this year. 

BTW, I visited Wabash in Crawfordsville last year ... a very nice looking campus.

[HSCTiger fan]

I don't really understand non-scholarship D1 football. What does that really mean ? Davidson would struggle to win the ODAC or most other D3 conferences.
D1 non-scholarship football is really D3 football advertising itself as something not D3, right, at least in Davidson's case.

I think that's an oversimplification.  Davidson might be a really bad team in the Pioneer League, but the average and better teams there would be overwhelming to all but the very best of D3.

The biggest difference is in the coaching staffs.  These d1 teams will have many more full time coaches than most D3 teams. They also red-shirt players, play an 11 game schedule, have full contact in the spring, and can have summer workouts. All advantages for the players to further develop. But without any doubt they recruit against D2 and D3 schools NOT other D1 programs.

[wally_wabash]

I don't really understand non-scholarship D1 football. What does that really mean ? Davidson would struggle to win the ODAC or most other D3 conferences.
D1 non-scholarship football is really D3 football advertising itself as something not D3, right, at least in Davidson's case.

I think that's an oversimplification.  Davidson might be a really bad team in the Pioneer League, but the average and better teams there would be overwhelming to all but the very best of D3.

But without any doubt they recruit against D2 and D3 schools NOT other D1 programs.

I'm sure there is some D2 and D3 intersections with recruits for Pioneer League FCS teams, but I don't think most of these teams have what people would call an average D3 roster.  Like hasanova pointed out, these FCS teams, even the non-scholarship teams, will have overwhelming size/speed/strength advantages over D3s. 

Another way to think about it is this- the mean D3 team probably has a handful of kids that could really, legitimately play Pioneer League FCS ball.  Pioneer League FCS teams have 80 kids that could really, legitimately play D3.  That's the separation.   

[sigma one]

In 2013 and 2014 Wittenberg played Butler (Pioneer League) in the season opener for Witt.  Butler won both games, 49-24 and 22-16.  Witt went on to win the NCAC title both years.  In 2013, after Butler, Witt won its next 10 games, losing in the second round of the play offs to Mt. Union.  In 2014, Witt won its next nine games and lost to W & J in the first round of the playoffs.  I sat with the Witt fans in 2013; the game was at Butler.  Witt had to score a couple of late TDs to make the score semi-respectable.  In 2014 they played better at home against the Bulldogs.
     In 2013, Butler finished 9-4.  In 2014, they finished 4-7.   In 2013, there was a big difference in talent.  Butler dominated the line of scrimmage, and Witt had no answer for the Butler offense.  I went to the game knowing that Witt was going to be a very good DIII team.  I left believing that the "non-Scholarship" Bulldogs were a clear step above.  Witt's loss in the 2013 playoffs to Mt. Union was by a similar score to the Butler win.  Comparing scores is a fool's errand, so make of that what you will when you hypothetically line up the very best in DIII vs a Patriot League team. 
     
     

[HSCTiger fan]

I don't really understand non-scholarship D1 football. What does that really mean ? Davidson would struggle to win the ODAC or most other D3 conferences.
D1 non-scholarship football is really D3 football advertising itself as something not D3, right, at least in Davidson's case.

I think that's an oversimplification.  Davidson might be a really bad team in the Pioneer League, but the average and better teams there would be overwhelming to all but the very best of D3.

But without any doubt they recruit against D2 and D3 schools NOT other D1 programs.

I'm sure there is some D2 and D3 intersections with recruits for Pioneer League FCS teams, but I don't think most of these teams have what people would call an average D3 roster.  Like hasanova pointed out, these FCS teams, even the non-scholarship teams, will have overwhelming size/speed/strength advantages over D3s. 

Another way to think about it is this- the mean D3 team probably has a handful of kids that could really, legitimately play Pioneer League FCS ball.  Pioneer League FCS teams have 80 kids that could really, legitimately play D3.  That's the separation.   

I don't know the pioneer league outside of Morehead State, Campbell and Davidson. You may be right about other teams. But in 2013 HSC had a back up linebacker who started at Campbell. I know all three recruited my son weekly when he was a high school senior. He took official visits to Davidson and Morehead State as well as non-schlorship Georgetown. He was offered at 2. Davidson did not offer because we did not think his 1230 SAT would get him in. HSC has 75 to 100 kids that could play for any of these pioneer teams. Most of the players HSC recruits are rejected by SCHOLARSHIP FCS programs.  I would think this would be true at most ODAC schools and Pioneer League schools. 

Further if you look at their rosters you'll see more 6' 1" linemen than 6'5" and 6'4". I don't think for a second these programs are bigger. If they are stronger and faster it's because of summer workouts and dedicated speed and conditioning coaches. They were not recruited because of their superior strength and speed.

Sure Guilford lost badly to two pioneer teams last year but they also lost by 2 or more TDs to RMC, WL, Bridgewater, and Shenandoah. They aren't playing these teams for a big payday. Davidson only has bleachers on one side and may average 2000 per game. I'd argue that Guilford of 2015 would not lose to 2017 Davidson.

Butler in 2013 was 9-4.  If Butler is your measuring stick then we're not talking the same thing. I'm more familiar with Davidson who probably has not won 9 FCS games in the last 5 year.

On the flip side in 2014 Butler finished 4-7. Whit lost by 6 that year in a game that was 2-0 at halftime. It was 22-16 with 10 minutes to go in the forth so not exactly 2 late TDs.

Redshirting, more coaching, summer workouts are what make the difference.

[wally_wabash]

We're obviously not going to get any kind of agreement here, but I want to gnaw on this:

Sure Guilford lost badly to two pioneer teams last year but they also lost by 2 or more TDs to RMC, WL, Bridgewater, and Shenandoah. They aren't playing these teams for a big payday. Davidson only has bleachers on one side and may average 2000 per game. I'd argue that Guilford of 2015 would not lose to 2017 Davidson.

Davidson, who we all do agree is terrible, was up on Guilford 42-7 at halftime.  The game ends 42-21, but honestly- that game score could have been whatever Davidson (who is terrible, remember) wanted it to be.  And 2015 Guilford might have hung around a little longer, but they would have been overwhelmed eventually also. 

It's easy to pick one or two guys from any middle percentile D3 team and say "this kid could have played FCS".  Every single kid on Davidson's roster IS playing FCS.  When you start jumping divisions, team rosters as a whole are just not equivalent, and it's not just a function of extra supervised sprints in the summer.  Which is ok.  You can be a really good D3 team and get squashed by an FCS team.  No shame in that game. 

[sigma one]

Point well taken about Davidson not being Butler.  If we are using only Davidson, almost always near the bottom of the Pioneer League, and, say, eliminating the top half of the league, then I'll concede that the difference in talent shrinks, probably considerably.
     When Chris Creighton, now HC at Eastern Michingan, left Wabash for Drake (Pioneer League), i promised him I would be at Drake's first game the next season.  I drove to Des Moines to see Creighton's first Drake team.   In previous years Drake had struggled.  Creighton told me that his last team at Wabash (which lost to UW Whitewater in the DIII playoffs in Creighton's last year at Wabash) could have competed against his team at Drake.  He didn't say he thought That Wabash team would have beaten Drake; maybe he couldn't say that. By the time he left Drake he believed that they were vastly improved.
     Along with Wally, though, I believe there is a difference in talent (not necessarily in size, more in speed and athleticism) between non-scholarship Pioneer teams and most DIII teams. That does not mean that some athletes could not succeed in the Pioneer League as well as in DIII.  As much as I admire what happens in DIII, I don't think many DIII teams would beat most of the Pioneer League teams.  But, again, maybe Davidson is the exception on most Saturdays against the best of the Old Dominion Conference.  And to complicate matters just a bit, I can't get last year's Davidson/Guilford game out of my vision:  42-21 Davidson win.  Admittedly, Guilford was a middling ODC team at 5-5, but they didn't appear to be close in that game.   
     I would think that DII generally is closer to the Pioneer League overall, but that's just a guess after watching quite a few DII games in recent years.  I know Butler, for example, recruits against schools like the University of Indianapolis, which had a very good DII team in 2017--and UIndy has the advantage of being able to offer some kind of  football scholarship to help sway a recruit.
     

[Ralph Turner]

A question about non-scholarship football. 

How is non-scholarship football beneficial for Title IX considerations, versus scholarship FCS or non-football playing Division I?

[HSCTiger fan]

Point well taken about Davidson not being Butler.  If we are using only Davidson, almost always near the bottom of the Pioneer League, and, say, eliminating the top half of the league, then I'll concede that the difference in talent shrinks, probably considerably.
     When Chris Creighton, now HC at Eastern Michingan, left Wabash for Drake (Pioneer League), i promised him I would be at Drake's first game the next season.  I drove to Des Moines to see Creighton's first Drake team.   In previous years Drake had struggled.  Creighton told me that his last team at Wabash (which lost to UW Whitewater in the DIII playoffs in Creighton's last year at Wabash) could have competed against his team at Drake.  He didn't say he thought That Wabash team would have beaten Drake; maybe he couldn't say that. By the time he left Drake he believed that they were vastly improved.
     Along with Wally, though, I believe there is a difference in talent (not necessarily in size, more in speed and athleticism) between non-scholarship Pioneer teams and most DIII teams. That does not mean that some athletes could not succeed in the Pioneer League as well as in DIII.  As much as I admire what happens in DIII, I don't think many DIII teams would beat most of the Pioneer League teams.  But, again, maybe Davidson is the exception on most Saturdays against the best of the Old Dominion Conference.  And to complicate matters just a bit, I can't get last year's Davidson/Guilford game out of my vision:  42-21 Davidson win.  Admittedly, Guilford was a middling ODC team at 5-5, but they didn't appear to be close in that game.   
     I would think that DII generally is closer to the Pioneer League overall, but that's just a guess after watching quite a few DII games in recent years.  I know Butler, for example, recruits against schools like the University of Indianapolis, which had a very good DII team in 2017--and UIndy has the advantage of being able to offer some kind of  football scholarship to help sway a recruit.
   

I would agree D1 non-scholarship is more generally closer to D2. But I know without any doubt in the Carolina's,  Campbell and Davidson are not recruiting against Western Carolina and NC A&T. They recruit many of the same players as D3s and D2s.

Wally - if you don't think red shirts, getting summer to workout as a team and then starting practices at least 1 week earlier makes a difference then we will just have to disagree. If you are a senior at a non-scholarship D1 you will have had 4 summers, 4 more weeks of camp, 4 weeks more of regular season practice and games, and 4 springs with contact than a a typical D3 player.  When you combine that with the fact they have D1 coaches at every position, I think it matters a lot. Ask Wabash's coaches if they would like to play under those rules while the rest of d3 teams play under current rules and see what they say.