FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[jknezek]

Praying for a full recovery Jeremy. Sorry to hear it's lingering on.
On another note, we heard last night that W&L has canceled all games outside of ODAC. Best hope right now is for an abbreviated season.
That's the word from the underground.

Thanks. My F-I-L seems to have mostly recovered. He had a milder case and is just still having some lingering fatigue. My M-I-L was on day 11, I think, of a 102-103 fever. It hasn't gotten any worse since about day 7 or 8, but she has been completely miserable. Hoping the fever will break soon so she can sleep better and maybe the shortness of breath will allow her to move around more easily. This has been a vicious challenge for her.

As for the rest, that's about what I've been expecting. No overnights, stay in the bubble as much as possible. Given the numbers we are seeing in some areas, I expect there will be a good bit of professor absenteeism if this gets loose on a campus.

[jknezek]

Well after 12 days of 102-103 fever my m-i-l's finally broke the other day. She is improving and today went outside for the first time in 2 weeks. My f-i-l has essentially recovered other than a lingering cough though his symptoms were never as bad. Hopefully they will fully recover. Both will take a test in 7 days and then again every 7 days after until they get 2 negatives in a row. At that point they will be allowed to end their strict quarantine.

We are all relieved around here...

[HSCTiger74]

  That's great news jk, really glad to hear it.

[y_jack_lok]

jk, just now seeing that latest update on your in-laws. So glad hear that news. Twelve days with that fever had to be really rough.

[jknezek]

Thanks guys. She was pretty miserable but the worst is over. We will see if any issues linger but I am thankful both my in-laws are recovered/recovering. Scary stuff. Stay safe!

[jknezek]

In my opinion, sooner or later W&L is going to have to change the name. It keeps coming up with increasing frequency, so I'm leaning toward sooner, but I would have said the same 2 years. Still, how much bad publicity are you willing to weather every year or two? Going to be a lot of unhappy older alumni when it finally happens, but probably no more than when we went coed. I wonder if the athletic nickname will go with it? We primarily use the Trident symbol now for the athletic department, but "Generals" is usually on uniforms somewhere. And keeping the Trident might be an issue if we weren't W&L...

We will see if the latest faculty statement is the last straw. Or if the faculty will stay unified as I think the latest call may have been indicative but not official.

[HSCTiger fan]

In my opinion, sooner or later W&L is going to have to change the name. It keeps coming up with increasing frequency, so I'm leaning toward sooner, but I would have said the same 2 years. Still, how much bad publicity are you willing to weather every year or two? Going to be a lot of unhappy older alumni when it finally happens, but probably no more than when we went coed. I wonder if the athletic nickname will go with it? We primarily use the Trident symbol now for the athletic department, but "Generals" is usually on uniforms somewhere. And keeping the Trident might be an issue if we weren't W&L...

We will see if the latest faculty statement is the last straw. Or if the faculty will stay unified as I think the latest call may have been indicative but not official.

Where does it stop?  Is the name enough? Changing the name does not change the past.  Will changing the name increase the number of black students and faculty members (currently 2.2% and 4.1%) Real change is a little harder than a name change. Telling generations of alumni they should be ashamed of their alma mater just to placate today's left seems foolish to me.  But heck I went to school in North Carolina, a state who gets its name from King Charles I. A king who granted a license to a syndicate of traders that gave them approval to transport slaves from Guinea. So I cannot say too much.

[jknezek]

Where does it stop?  Is the name enough? Changing the name does not change the past.  Will changing the name increase the number of black students and faculty members (currently 2.2% and 4.1%) Real change is a little harder than a name change. Telling generations of alumni they should be ashamed of their alma mater just to placate today's left seems foolish to me.  But heck I went to school in North Carolina, a state who gets its name from King Charles I. A king who granted a license to a syndicate of traders that gave them approval to transport slaves from Guinea. So I cannot say too much.

I think those numbers are a major indication of a problem. And yes, I think changing the name will help with the problem... eventually.

I'll leave one personal story here, though it's one I may have told on this board the last time this debate popped up in 2018. Back in 2016, I think - too lazy to look it up but it was not the most recent game rather the one before, I was at the W&L at Sewanee game. An older, black Sewanee gent approached me hesitantly as I was standing along the endzone and not with the W&L crowd. He asked me, I suspect as nicely as he could imagine, how W&L was still a segregated team. I told him it wasn't but was kind of at a loss for words. He looked at our football team, and our cheering section, and said he didn't see a single black player on the field. I looked him square in the face and told him that there was only ONE black student on the team as far as I knew, a first year from the town over from me in AL. The nice man looked at me for a second and said something like, "I see. I wouldn't have gone to a school named for Lee either."

I think he expected me to make a scene or argue as he kind of cringed after he said it. Instead I looked right at him and told him I didn't blame him. I said I loved my school and made great friends and had a wonderful education, but that for a kid from NJ, Confederate pride came as quite a shock my freshman year.

I stood with that nice older gent, who turned out to be the grandfather of a Sewanee player, for part of the third quarter and we talked cautiously. Mostly about football as I suspect both of us felt pretty awkward after the opening. Finally he said it was nice to talk to me and he was glad his fears weren't true, but he was glad his grandson wasn't at a school named for Lee. I didn't know what to say but I put my hand out to shake his and said it was nice to meet him as well and I hoped his grandson had a great college experience. W&L is a great school, but if the name engenders that kind of response for a significant segment of the American population, we have a problem. That day really confirmed my belief that the name needed to change.

I think, or I hope though I believe I see evidence of it, with each generation there are fewer students in W&L's target audience who are willing to embrace the Antebellum South as heroic and more looking at it as a distasteful if not disgraceful period of American history. I think that is accelerating across the country because as the world becomes more connected and mobile it's harder to maintain the stories that promote Confederate pride. When your main source of history was your school approved textbook and teacher, it was easy to brush slavery aside for states rights. When the world is electronically connected, it's harder for that textbook to stand up to the scrutiny.

I'm not ashamed of W&L, though I'll be sad if they push this decision off again. But here's two things that are facts about R.E. Lee. 1) He didn't want Confederate Monuments. 2) He wanted what was best for what was then Washington College. Dropping the name Lee from Washington and Lee University might be a fit for both of those desires.

[y_jack_lok]

In my opinion, sooner or later W&L is going to have to change the name. It keeps coming up with increasing frequency, so I'm leaning toward sooner, but I would have said the same 2 years. Still, how much bad publicity are you willing to weather every year or two? Going to be a lot of unhappy older alumni when it finally happens, but probably no more than when we went coed. I wonder if the athletic nickname will go with it? We primarily use the Trident symbol now for the athletic department, but "Generals" is usually on uniforms somewhere. And keeping the Trident might be an issue if we weren't W&L...

We will see if the latest faculty statement is the last straw. Or if the faculty will stay unified as I think the latest call may have been indicative but not official.

My high school in Northern Virginia, named after a Confederate general, underwent a name change process starting in 2015 that took three years. It was excruciating, but everything I see and read indicates that the school is much better off in every way with its new name.

Every institution and jurisdiction facing this issue has to deal with it in its own way. It's not easy, but in the end changi g the names is the right thing to do.

[HSCTiger fan]

Maybe RMC should change their name too. John Randolph was one of the founders of the American Colonization Society in 1816, to send free blacks to a colony in Africa. At the same time, he believed that slavery was a necessity in Virginia, saying, "The question of slavery, as it is called, is to us a question of life and death ... You will find no instance in history where two distinct races have occupied the soil except in the relation of master and slave.

There's no end to this cancel culture mentality. 

[y_jack_lok]

Maybe RMC should change their name too. John Randolph was one of the founders of the American Colonization Society in 1816, to send free blacks to a colony in Africa. At the same time, he believed that slavery was a necessity in Virginia, saying, "The question of slavery, as it is called, is to us a question of life and death ... You will find no instance in history where two distinct races have occupied the soil except in the relation of master and slave.

There's no end to this cancel culture mentality.

If R-MC chooses to examine its name, I would support that. If it chooses to change it's name I would support that as well. One of my alma maters has already changed it's name. The process was difficult, but the result was worth it. It's not about canceling culture. It's about making sure that the person being honored by having his/her name given to a place, building  institution, etc. is fully deserving of that recognition.

[HSCTiger fan]

Maybe RMC should change their name too. John Randolph was one of the founders of the American Colonization Society in 1816, to send free blacks to a colony in Africa. At the same time, he believed that slavery was a necessity in Virginia, saying, "The question of slavery, as it is called, is to us a question of life and death ... You will find no instance in history where two distinct races have occupied the soil except in the relation of master and slave.

There's no end to this cancel culture mentality.

If R-MC chooses to examine its name, I would support that. If it chooses to change it's name I would support that as well. One of my alma maters has already changed it's name. The process was difficult, but the result was worth it. It's not about canceling culture. It's about making sure that the person being honored by having his/her name given to a place, building  institution, etc. is fully deserving of that recognition.

I respectfully disagree.  Once RMC officially changes its name then what?  Does RMC give back all the money they've received from racist throughout their history?  Do they rename all the streets thru and around campus currently named for former slave owners? Do they rename the town of Ashland which was named for the family farm of slave owner Henry Clay.  If yes then why stop there - Hanover county once had one of the largest enslaved populations in the state. Even the state of Virginia was named in honor of Queen Elizabeth I (The Virgin Queen) who enthusiastically supported the slave trade.

It never ends. It will never be enough for the cancel culture movement.

RMC, WL, HSC and others can embrace who they were, who they are, and where they want to go without trying to erase their past.

JK I respect your story.  He says he would not have gone to a school named after Lee but I assume he had no problem with his grandson attending a school named The University of the South. Sewanee's early leaders openly embraced a belief in white racial superiority.  A university that has only 4% of its enrollment as black students. 4% of 1750 students is 70!  WL at 2.2% has 50!  The culture needs to change more than the name. Change the name and continue to only bring 12 to 13 black students a year?  Who does that help? What it does do is allow those who make the name change a chance to pat themselves on the back and lie to themselves about all the change they made. While in reality they will have done nothing. If the powers that be at WL said we are changing our name and commit to quadrupling our black students. Then maybe I'd be more open to the change. But changing the name only and continuing with the status quo would be a patronizing move to simply placate the far left radicals that are trying to ruin our country.

[jknezek]

W&L has said many times over the almost 25 years I've been associated with the school that they would like to increase minority enrollment and that a lack of diversity is holding the school back. There are a myriad of scholarships to increase those numbers, including the largest gift to the University in its history, that sit unused or under used due to a lack of application and acceptance of minority, and especially black, students.

That is the root of the problem. And more than 20 years of trying has shown it can't be fixed while the name of the top Confederate General remains proudly on the school.

So far, despite their words, the school has been unwilling to make the hardest decision about that tradeoff, though many smaller and, in the grand scheme, inconsequential steps have been taken. I suspect the balance is shifting as it becomes less ok to honor and glory Lee and others of the Confederacy.

[MUC57]

Maybe RMC should change their name too. John Randolph was one of the founders of the American Colonization Society in 1816, to send free blacks to a colony in Africa. At the same time, he believed that slavery was a necessity in Virginia, saying, "The question of slavery, as it is called, is to us a question of life and death ... You will find no instance in history where two distinct races have occupied the soil except in the relation of master and slave.

There's no end to this cancel culture mentality.

o

If R-MC chooses to examine its name, I would support that. If it chooses to change it's name I would support that as well. One of my alma maters has already changed it's name. The process was difficult, but the result was worth it. It's not about canceling culture. It's about making sure that the person being honored by having his/her name given to a place, building  institution, etc. is fully deserving of that recognition.

I respectfully disagree.  Once RMC officially changes its name then what?  Does RMC give back all the money they've received from racist throughout their history?  Do they rename all the streets thru and around campus currently named for former slave owners? Do they rename the town of Ashland which was named for the family farm of slave owner Henry Clay.  If yes then why stop there - Hanover county once had one of the largest enslaved populations in the state. Even the state of Virginia was named in honor of Queen Elizabeth I (The Virgin Queen) who enthusiastically supported the slave trade.

It never ends. It will never be enough for the cancel culture movement.

RMC, WL, HSC and others can embrace who they were, who they are, and where they want to go without trying to erase their past.

JK I respect your story.  He says he would not have gone to a school named after Lee but I assume he had no problem with his grandson attending a school named The University of the South. Sewanee's early leaders openly embraced a belief in white racial superiority.  A university that has only 4% of its enrollment as black students. 4% of 1750 students is 70!  WL at 2.2% has 50!  The culture needs to change more than the name. Change the name and continue to only bring 12 to 13 black students a year?  Who does that help? What it does do is allow those who make the name change a chance to pat themselves on the back and lie to themselves about all the change they made. While in reality they will have done nothing. If the powers that be at WL said we are changing our name and commit to quadrupling our black students. Then maybe I'd be more open to the change. But changing the name only and continuing with the status quo would be a patronizing move to simply placate the far left radicals that are trying to ruin our country.

HSCTiger fan

I really like your comments. You said what the others are overlooking, namely, it takes more than a name change.
Thank goodness we don't have to worry about a name change at Mount Union. Or do we?
There is probably a Mount "something or other" in the heart of Dixie. And Union? Must be something, somewhere that is offensive!
So many schools with such a rich tradition, that have educated so many, sometimes in perilous times, and have stood the test of time. Sure hope they all survive the politics and the craziness going on.
Good for you HSCTiger fan for what I thought was excellent commentary.
Stay safe and stay well. 🎓 ‼️

Oh! Was worth a +K as well! 

[y_jack_lok]

HSCTiger fan, I want to refer back to my initial post on this subject when I said "Every institution and jurisdiction facing this issue has to deal with it in its own way. It's not easy, but in the end changi g the names is the right thing to do." That was in reference to the name of my high school, originally named after a Confederate general, and WLU, which has to grapple with the issue of Lee.

I do think it is a very different matter when talking about places/buildings/institutions named after people who weren't Confederate leaders, but who owned slaves or condoned slavery. So, in reference to R-MC, if the school wants to examine its name (I have no idea if it will) then that's okay with me.  Whatever conclusion it came to as a result of that examination, should it happen, (change it, don't change it) would also be okay with me.

What's important to me is that we consider whether or not the person for whom something is named should still be recognized or honored in that way. These are difficult things to tackle, but we learn a lot about our history and key figures in that history through the process. For example, I did not know that information about John Randolph until you pointed it out. So I learned something from this exchange.