FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[Ralph Turner]

I am going to post this on the ODAC board as well as USASouth.  I decided to reorganize the ODAC and the USASouth (Football Only) here is what I came up with.

NEW USASouth

Averett
Emory and Henry
Ferrum
Greensboro
Guilford
Maryvile
Methodist
North Carolina Wesleyan

New ODAC
Bridgewater (VA)
Catholic
Christopher Newport
Gallaudet
Hampden Syndey
Shenadoah
Washington and Lee
Randolph Macon

This is just something fun.  Just having Guilford in the same conference makes the "rivalary" that much more important.

This gives USASouth a chance to win the conference without CNU at the top. Also gives CNU a chance not to win the conference.

This cuts the travel time for Maryville as well. Actually a bunch of schools as well.

Gives USASouth 4 NC teams and 4 VA.

Gives ODAC all VA Teams.

A rivalary could start between Catholic and Gallaudet.

What would the conference outlook be if this were truly the conferences?

... but having CNU and Bridgewater in the same conference could mess up someone's AQ. ...

Or make for some real "haves" and "havenots".

[WLU78]

Admittedly it has been quiet on the boards lately, so here we go..........

Well, I saw this article on www.everydayshouldbesaturday.com and it reminded me of my rant about admissions standards and its effect on the football recruiting pool.  To back up my thesis, I bring you Jim Harbaugh:

http://sports.aol.com/fanhouse/2007/06/05/can-jim-harbaugh-win-against-stanford-admissions/

Now, I know most of you think W&L grads are, how was it phrased on this board at one time? "Windbags and Lawyers" and the comment to the effect that that is redundant.  One has only to review this year's ratings by U.S. News and World Reports College Rankings http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/college/rankings/brief/t1libartco_brief.php
and difficulty of W&L's admissions standards to appreciate what the football staff at W&L accomplished this past season.

And in my perverse little world, that makes the General's 2006 Football Championship even greater! 

In that world, how does it affect the Wilkes game?

Huh?

[WLU78]

Basically though, that's kind of my rambling. The more key issues, I think, as I've shared with Jacket Lawyer, are the escalating costs of tuition vs. the tuition at the other successful schools in the area.

Seriously, if you're getting recruited by ... (making up rough numbers and details here)
Bridgewater: Stagg Bowl and 6 championships since 2000
CNU: $8-12,000 tuition
Shenandoah: Playoff appearance three years ago
Averett: Playoff contender last year, chance to play Mount Union
HSC: Bunch of 8-win seasons, but only girls from Longwood & Sweet Briar, $30,000
RMC: Almost $30,000/year, last ODAC title in 1997
E&H: Cow country, but at least an ODAC contender last year

What would you pick?

Also, I think RMC coaches have recently not received "extra" help from the admissions and financial aid offices, which is keeping with a fair academic policy, but is not conducive to getting the best players into your school. Help finding loans and grants, and getting kids with academic promise but maybe not quite the SAT number your school usually requires, are big helps to building a program, especially if you believe in the D3 "recruit numbers" method (see recruiting thread on general football)
But again, everything I just said is talking out of my backside ... I don't want to confuse it with what I write when I actually do my research.

Now you will incur the wrath of the BC faithful since you dared to utter out loud what we all suspect to be the reason some programs suddenly find ascendancy in their league.

And you left off the BC tuition amount.

And you didn't mention the reason recruits come to W&L. The tuition there is in the ballpark of the other schools.

I am curious about that oversight.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

In all seriousness, I wouldn't want this change to happen at all.  I am a USASouth fan through and through.  If I were to root for an ODAC team it would have to be Bridgewater College.  (Two of your athletes from the 80's are some of the best coaches that are coaching at my high school still to this day.  Not only are they still coaching they are still winning.)  I think that is something to be said about Bridgewater.  (One of these coaches was a two time all-american 1B at Bridgewater. The other was just inducted into the Bridgewater HOF last year.)

[Jacketlawyer]

    Hey Jacket, hate to tell you this but I think your Jackets better get that one W somewhere else cuz I don't see them beating H-S any time soon.  8) Maybe if you threaten to stop giving all the $ you donate, they will tighten up in Ashland. 

Hope springs eternal, my good friend.  Hafta believe!!

It goes in cycles.

Although there were a couple good games (45-42, 26-17 and 7-0) over the past few years, there really hasn't been a season when H-SC and R-MC have been good in the same year since 1993.

I think the game would be more relevant if it were to have an ODAC title riding on it like many of them did in earlier years.

Good to see ya back, K-Mack.  You bring up some good points in your posts.  I'm sure they'll get the ball rolling here!

I'm concerned the Randolph-Macon situation is more of a slump than a cycle. The R-M student turnout at last year's game at H-S was pretty bad; nobody seemed to be stoked about the game (except the alumni).  And who can blame them, really?  When was the last winning season we had (I'm afraid to find out)?

I'm all for improving academically.  While not as much fun as improving athletically, I think anyone would agree it's more important.  My point is I think R-M can do both without expense from either category

[K-Mack]

And you didn't mention the reason recruits come to W&L. The tuition there is in the ballpark of the other schools.

I am curious about that oversight.

I always leave W&L out of that discussion because I think they're recruiting from a different pool, i.e. higher academic requirements and you all cast a wider geographic net than just the mid-Atlantic.

Same way I left Catholic out because they do most of their recruiting, it seems, from Catholic schools in the Northeast, from Mass. to N.J. to Pa. to Balt. and D.C. (you know, where the Catholics are) ... Guilford seems not to spend much time recruiting Va., which makes sense, because there are many more D3s here than in N.C.

But from my experience covering high schools in Northern Virginia for 5 years from 2000-05, Bridgewater, Christopher Newport, Shenandoah, Hampden-Sydney and Randolph-Macon, and Averett, are pursuing a lot of the same kids. I don't think E&H comes up here, but they're in the mix for Richmond kids.

Assuming that's true, I'm not liking where we stand against a lot of those schools right now, as far as tuition and recent football tradition are concerned. I realize there are many, many other factors that go into it though.

And as far as the part you bolded, that was not a specific dig at Bridgewater, I believe it happens lots of places. I believe most coaches are in favor of having some cooperation in admissions, financial aid or both, and it means as much or more as having "admininstrative support." (you might even interpret it as the same thing) ... I'm not even so sure it runs contrary to the overall goal of having a vibrant college community. Bending your academic standards, for instance, may seem uncouth, but in the long run, a kid who commits himself to the football program for 4 years is probably going to be a positive influence in other areas of campus life.

As far as not having that support ... I'm sure these coaches hate nothing more than when they have a kid interested but they can't get him in, and he ends up kicking their butts for 4 years on a conference rival.

[K-Mack]

I'm all for improving academically.  While not as much fun as improving athletically, I think anyone would agree it's more important.  My point is I think R-M can do both without expense from either category

Yeah, I think it can be done too, but it takes a serious effort. Who is to say they're not trying right now?

All I'm saying is there have been big changes in the football landscape in Va. in the past 10 years. When I played, R-MC had a lot of success getting kids out of N.J., Pa. and Md. and blended that with really strong recruiting in Va., but all they had to beat back then was E&H and H-SC (basically), and some years, beating H-SC must not have been all that hard.

Now they have a lot of competition just within Va., and that's not even taking into account Centennial schools or out-of-state USAC schools who get the occasional Va. player.

As an aside, I know E&H always recruited southwest va. and west va. and tenn., but it seems they've stretched into Southern Ohio, which actually makes sense given where their coach is from and where the school is located.

Aside No. 2, R-MC seems to have a very uneven, cyclical athletic program where there's always some really good teams on campus, whether they be basketball, football, lax, soccer or field hockey or swimming or what have you ... but I can't think of too many years where they were all good at the same time. I guess that's par for the course though.

JL, maybe people like you and I need to start donating the big bucks and using our clout (sarcasm font again) to get things done.

Anyway, FWIW ...

[abnrgr]

Counselor
Being from New Orleans there's a bunch of us Catholics down there and most important there is good football and Catholic U misses out.
Counselor
I would agree the bow ties have to cast a wider net due to academics.

Hell I cannot remember who said it.....(Sonny Randall ECU maybe) but if a college could get the best players from the state (only players from the state the school is in) they live and recruit in; then  they would never have to leave the state. The players are there. Just build walls. heh heh

Imagine every football player that BC got in one year was from VA or GC-Q from NC.  That would be a hell of a team.   

[Jacketlawyer]

Yeah, I think it can be done too, but it takes a serious effort. Who is to say they're not trying right now?

All I'm saying is there have been big changes in the football landscape in Va. in the past 10 years. When I played, R-MC had a lot of success getting kids out of N.J., Pa. and Md. and blended that with really strong recruiting in Va., but all they had to beat back then was E&H and H-SC (basically), and some years, beating H-SC must not have been all that hard.

As an aside, I know E&H always recruited southwest va. and west va. and tenn., but it seems they've stretched into Southern Ohio, which actually makes sense given where their coach is from and where the school is located.

JL, maybe people like you and I need to start donating the big bucks and using our clout (sarcasm font again) to get things done.

K-Mack, just a couple of thoughts, well maybe not thoughts, actually, gripes!

You're right on your assertion on who's to say they're not trying.  I get the sense they are from watching improvements/hiring moves in other sports there over the past two years or so.  Not in football, though.  However, if I had to guess, righting a football program is an exceptionally tough task.

As you and I have discussed via PM, the football recruiting landscape has changed in Virginia.  I won't repeat what you have already written so well, but I would only add this is an explanation, not an excuse.  People often misunderstand or exchange the two terms.  Don't do it!

E&H will be back my friends.  And soon.

K-Mack, I've pledged my gift this year to R-M.  I always try to give them money. However, I don't think it's likely to get me anything other than a thank you note, and a tax write-off.  I seriously doubt anyone up there cares what I post on this board, let alone reads it.  Nor should they!!

[Jacketlawyer]

Counselor
Being from New Orleans there's a bunch of us Catholics down there and most important there is good football and Catholic U misses out.

abnrgr--will be heading up to DC to watch my Jackets play CUA this year.  One of my best friends here in town is a CUA alumnus, so we're gonna drive up together.  The winner buys the loser drinks, so I expect the experience to be somewhat alcohol-soaked.

[WLU78]

And as far as the part you bolded, that was not a specific dig at Bridgewater, I believe it happens lots of places. I believe most coaches are in favor of having some cooperation in admissions, financial aid or both, and it means as much or more as having "admininstrative support." (you might even interpret it as the same thing) ... I'm not even so sure it runs contrary to the overall goal of having a vibrant college community. Bending your academic standards, for instance, may seem uncouth, but in the long run, a kid who commits himself to the football program for 4 years is probably going to be a positive influence in other areas of campus life.

As far as not having that support ... I'm sure these coaches hate nothing more than when they have a kid interested but they can't get him in, and he ends up kicking their butts for 4 years on a conference rival.

I think this article from the Chattanooga Newspaper posted at the Sewanee website about sums up what is going on in regards to the part I bolded:

Newspaper
From the Chattanooga Times Free Press
Sunday June 10, 2007

Division III dissension

By Darren Epps
Staff Writer

SEWANEE, Tenn. -- Demanding academic standards and an expansive selection of sports programs make the University of the South an ideal NCAA Division III institution, a model of genuine amateur athletics.

But the model is becoming blurred by universities with different interpretations of the Division III mission statement, and the school also known as Sewanee is watching membership and dissension swell.

The fractured membership could result in Sewanee and other traditional schools competing in a new division starting in 2009, possibly under the designation of Division IV or even Division V. Numerous presidents, athletic directors and administrators interviewed said a plan to split Division III, which does not allow athletic scholarships, is imminent when the group meets at January's convention in Nashville.

It's a case of multiplication forcing more dividing.

"It may go to two subdivisions or a fourth division, or potentially even both," NCAA president Myles Brand said. "I think what's happened is that Division III has gotten too big, and there's some philosophical differences within the division that we might do better at treating them separately."

The crux of Division III's civil war is indeed the rising number of universities, now at 450 counting the provisional schools. The influx of schools means a sweeping range of standards concerning admissions, financial aid and the vigor in which Division III programs are pursuing national championships.

Traditional schools like Sewanee want to align with academic peers. Other programs will pursue the athletic spotlight. And even more schools are resistant to change, unwilling to relinquish 80-year-old rivalries or accept a perceived demotion to a potential Division IV.

[deleted remainder to preserve newspaper's copyright]

Link to the article:
http://www.timesfreepress.com/absolutenm/templates/sports.aspx?articleid=16579&zoneid=6

Chattanooga Times Free Press
http://www.timesfreepress.com/

[Jacketlawyer]

That was some good readin'.  I guess the topic K-Mack and I have touched upon was just the tip of the iceberg.

I do think a DIII-A, or a DIV would be a difficult sell.  But there can be no question DIII football is expanding at a rapid rate.

Still, one would think with the INSANE rise in tuition over the past 20 years, there'd be enough talented DIII players out there who are looking for any kind of break in their tuition.

Speaking of which, I was looking at the sticker price for most of the ODAC schools out there.  It now costs as much to go for one year as it did for four years when I was going through.  Don't know how these parents do it.

I wouldn't trade my liberal arts education for anything, but if the tuition rates keep climbing at these schools, pretty soon we're going to be back where we were before the G.I. Bill was created in that only the very rich or the very poor will be able to go to college.

And some schools won't make it, or will have to change their charters to make ends meet, like the new Randolph College.

I'd better be wrong about this. . .  8)  But we seem to be heading in that direction.

[skoaltrain]

Hey eyeryone!   Listen up, I've got some great news! 

I just saved a bunch of money on my car insurance!

Seriously though...check this out.  At least through 2009, we will be hosting the Stagg Bowl in Salem.  Hats off to the City of Salem as this is a big draw for them as well as some good press for the ODAC.  Stone Station will be in attendance come Dec. 15th this year and the next two years to follow.  To early to determine a menu but you can bet Stone Station God Fathers are discussing.  I can't wait!  It's going to be a great time! 

[WLU78]

That was some good readin'.  I guess the topic K-Mack and I have touched upon was just the tip of the iceberg.

I do think a DIII-A, or a DIV would be a difficult sell.  But there can be no question DIII football is expanding at a rapid rate.

Still, one would think with the INSANE rise in tuition over the past 20 years, there'd be enough talented DIII players out there who are looking for any kind of break in their tuition.

Speaking of which, I was looking at the sticker price for most of the ODAC schools out there.  It now costs as much to go for one year as it did for four years when I was going through.  Don't know how these parents do it.

I wouldn't trade my liberal arts education for anything, but if the tuition rates keep climbing at these schools, pretty soon we're going to be back where we were before the G.I. Bill was created in that only the very rich or the very poor will be able to go to college.

And some schools won't make it, or will have to change their charters to make ends meet, like the new Randolph College.

I'd better be wrong about this. . .  8)  But we seem to be heading in that direction.

The six figure incomes for profs pays for a lot of indoor plumbing!!

[WLU78]

Speaking of which, I was looking at the sticker price for most of the ODAC schools out there.  It now costs as much to go for one year as it did for four years when I was going through.  Don't know how these parents do it.

My daughter just graduated from Sewanee, and as we packed her stuff to bring home, I paused and asked myself that very question.  I look back and I don't know how we did it.

....and I have three more to go!!!