FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[WLU78]

I think that the schools would agree to some kind of a SAT and GPA standard.  Then like D1 and D2 the student would forward their SAT scores and the school would send the transcripts to said clearinghouse.  The people at the clearinghouse then declare the student eligible or not.  This info is available to the colleges he is applying to for admission.

With that said, I think there is a place for schools that emphasize athletics.  I know that Savannah College of Art and Design was busted for the liberal use of "presidential scholarships" for athletes when they had an amazing run in baseball.  But if a school wants to do that, fine.  Just don't represent yourself as something else.  I think that most schools have their admission folks give the coaches a few "get in school free" cards to use.  But if you have two levels DIII and DIV, (really a NAIA type level) for colleges it evens the playing fields again for the true DIII schools.

I think we have seen a lot of schools come to realize the importance of a successful athletic program for student recruitment, alumni giving, and even de-wadding of some prof's panties in certain situations.  So going forward I think the NCAA should embrace this and find a way for it to be a postive in this world of small colleges.

[allsky7]

I think that the schools would agree to some kind of a SAT and GPA standard.  Then like D1 and D2 the student would forward their SAT scores and the school would send the transcripts to said clearinghouse.  The people at the clearinghouse then declare the student eligible or not.  This info is available to the colleges he is applying to for admission.

With that said, I think there is a place for schools that emphasize athletics.  I know that Savannah College of Art and Design was busted for the liberal use of "presidential scholarships" for athletes when they had an amazing run in baseball.  But if a school wants to do that, fine.  Just don't represent yourself as something else.  I think that most schools have their admission folks give the coaches a few "get in school free" cards to use.  But if you have two levels DIII and DIV, (really a NAIA type level) for colleges it evens the playing fields again for the true DIII schools.

I think we have seen a lot of schools come to realize the importance of a successful athletic program for student recruitment, alumni giving, and even de-wadding of some prof's panties in certain situations. So going forward I think the NCAA should embrace this and find a way for it to be a postive in this world of small colleges.

     Now that is damn funny I tell you!!  And I have seen some serious wadding in all my years of being around academia. 
     Perhaps I am missing something here?  What is the purpose for the athletically minded D3 institutions staying D3? If they are going to give leadership, presidential, or whatever scholarships that are in reality just disguised athletic scholarships, then why don't they just move to the D2 level?  What have you really accomplished by creating a D3 and D4? Or is it just that they want to talk the D3 talk but not walk the D3 walk? 8)

[Pat Coleman]

I think you probably don't mean it as such but the allegations in your post are probably going to run afoul of the Terms of Service.

I doubt a school whose president has held rather high positions of authority in Division III is going to run afoul of the spirit of Division III in the way you allege.

[Jacketlawyer]

     Now that is damn funny I tell you!!  And I have seen some serious wadding in all my years of being around academia. 
     Perhaps I am missing something here?  What is the purpose for the athletically minded D3 institutions staying D3? If they are going to give leadership, presidential, or whatever scholarships that are in reality just disguised athletic scholarships, then why don't they just move to the D2 level?  What have you really accomplished by creating a D3 and D4? Or is it just that they want to talk the D3 talk but not walk the D3 walk? 8)

That was funny.

My .02 worth on going DII is simply. . . . . not as much fun.

When R-M soccer and basketball were DII, it was difficult as a fan to get fired up over playing some school you've never heard of located a few states away.

Now it was fun to watch Randolph-Macon play DI schools (UVA, VT, Richmond, VCU) in these two sports at that time.  We won more than you'd think, too.  But victories over our natural rivals is much better!

[Pat Coleman]

Or is it just that they want to talk the D3 talk but not walk the D3 walk? 8)

I think there's a disagreement as to what "the D3 walk" actually is.

[allsky7]

Or is it just that they want to talk the D3 talk but not walk the D3 walk? 8)

I think there's a disagreement as to what "the D3 walk" actually is.

     I suppose that is true. To me it is pretty simple. You are a student first and are treated the same as all other students. I think there is some margin for interpretation of what D3 is (eg: entrance requirements) and that is OK as long as it is the same standard for all students within a given college/university.  IF you are getting students in for athletic purposes under the guise of something else, that obviously violates the "spirit of D3".  I am not alleging anyone in particular is doing this.  Simply using terms (presidential/leadership) that were used in previous post.  8)

[WLU78]

I think you probably don't mean it as such but the allegations in your post are probably going to run afoul of the Terms of Service.

I doubt a school whose president has held rather high positions of authority in Division III is going to run afoul of the spirit of Division III in the way you allege.

Come on Pat, tell me again about the emperor's new clothes!!  I think that it goes on, and probably far more often than anybody wants to admit. 



Just like D1 there are those in DIII that cut corners, and suddenly out of nowhere a dominant program emerges leaving many us saying hmmmmmmmmmmm............................. and that is what prompts these kinds of conversations that are going on that are referenced in an earlier post.

[Pat Coleman]

It's not 1978 anymore. Schools have to report their financial aid packages to the NCAA and Division III schools that are out of the accepted range of variance for aid given to athletes face disciplinary measures.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

I don't think any d3 program should be thought as ones to cut corners.  Students that aren't athletes may feel athletes are getting some sort of special treament when in fact they are not.  I think small schools when it come to athletics might have an advantage to reward packages when they make up a higher percentage of the population.

I ran some numbers there are 337 athletes (minus a few for mulitisport athletes) at Greensboro College and by d3football numbers there are 885 students.  That is about 38% of the student body.  Try a school, lets say Christopher Newport using 486(minus a few for multisport athletes) and 5226 for number of Students  Only 9% of the students are athletes.  If anything was deemed "out of control" The bigger schools I think are at a slight disadvantage. (However, CNU is very cheap compared to some d3 schools and athletes might naturally flock there, because it is cheaper.)

However some small schools are the ones that are more expensive so unless the school covers alot of the aid, you probably aren't going to go there. That is just my opinion.

[WLU78]

It's not 1978 anymore.

Pat, I just can't get my arms around that concept yet.

Schools have to report their financial aid packages to the NCAA and Division III schools that are out of the accepted range of variance for aid given to athletes face disciplinary measures

Pat, I think this is the point that is debatable.  In fact, from the article in the Chattanooga paper; "But presidents and coaches can agree that Division III's diversity prompts the need for change. The profile of the less traditional, more athletic-minded school includes offering fewer sports to direct more money into their programs, making more financial aid available and accepting athletes with heightened academic risks."  and "Unlike in Division I, no NCAA clearinghouse exists for Division III. Colleges determine who's admitted and how much financial aid they receive."

From those statements one can assume there is a debate raging out there, not just on this board that will have an impact on the future of DIII.  It doesn't sound quite as cut and dry as you make it.

[PrideSportBBallGuy]

What is D-III's drug testing policy again?

[Pat Coleman]

D-III's drug testing policy is in a pilot program at the moment. It's been slow to come to D-III because of costs.

78, there is no debate that there is a financial aid reporting system and that schools with variances are investigated. The philosophy in Division III is that schools treat athletes like any other student. If a school wishes to give more financial aid to ALL students, who are you or I to say they can't?

[WLU78]

D-III's drug testing policy is in a pilot program at the moment. It's been slow to come to D-III because of costs.

78, there is no debate that there is a financial aid reporting system and that schools with variances are investigated. The philosophy in Division III is that schools treat athletes like any other student. If a school wishes to give more financial aid to ALL students, who are you or I to say they can't?

Pat, the article clearly states there is some disagreement as to financial aid standards, and clearly some schools are using different aid packages than others.  "The crux of Division III's civil war is indeed the rising number of universities, now at 450 counting the provisional schools. The influx of schools means a sweeping range of standards concerning admissions, financial aid and the vigor in which Division III programs are pursuing national championships."

This article makes it sound like "schools with variances" is a subjective measurement, not cast in stone like D1 and DII.  That is my point, I think there is some fudge factor in how the reporting and the way "the aid packages" are wrapped.

BTW--have you banned Kid?  He is very quiet lately.

[Pat Coleman]

Just because the Sewanee people feel there are sweeping ranges of financial aid doesn't make it so. Perhaps they are not aware that Division III came to a consensus on this and voted in the current system a few years ago.

[Pat Coleman]

And ban kid? No.