FB: Old Dominion Athletic Conference

[Snakehandler]

I'm I the only one anxiously waiting for the other shoe to drop on the floor?

[K-Mack]

It's good to be back, Allsky7!  This spring I was so involved in ODAC and ACC  baseball.  It was great!!  I spent a week in Jacksonville at the ACC tournament and got on TV for the 1400 brownies I brought down for the players on the 8 teams that contested for the championship.  That was pretty cool, at least for me.  I had wanted to go to Omaha, but I needed to teach summer school so I had to stay home, so I sent brownies to 3 teams:  Louisville (Pete Rodriguez ,rf, had played for Luray last summer), UNC (the ACC representative) and Oregon State (home of Joey Wong, Darwin Barney, Joe Paterson, Daniel Turpen, Mitch Canham and many others I could name).  Pete opened their package right in front of the reporters and I got written up in the Sunday papers in Louisville and had a live interview on the sports' radio show on the following Monday and a mention on Rivals.com.  How's that for simply baking a few brownies and sending baseball stones?  Now I am looking forward to Saturday and our first game here at BC.  We have a new pressbox and new seats that I couldn't possibly afford.  Looking forward to Stone Station and seeing friends!  The next week, I'm off to Linfield where I have been invited as Olinemom to see the Linfield vs HSU game.  I'm really happy to go out there and meet all the wonderful people with whom I have been corresponding on the boards for so long!!  Glad to be back in football season and on the boards!!  What are you going to be doing the next couple of weeks?

Good Lord.

Well Barnhart & Coleman, so much for us being the most famous ODAC-affilated message board alums.

[K-Mack]

Jacket -

Who knows? I think some fans and community supporters want CNU to move up to higher levels and offer scholarships. I know Trible's stated public comments are that CNU will always be a D3 school.....but then again - he's a politician and LAWYER - so, can you believe what he says?

Sorry  about that - had to sneak in a lawyer jab, ya know!

Way old (I'm looking for something in particular), but I was also told on and off the record on my visit to CNU last year that they like D3 and have no plans to move, despite speculation.

I guess I can understand it, given that they are basically sitting pretty in many ways by comparison to a lot of the schools they compete against.

[K-Mack]

W&L has lusted after the Centennial for some time.

The Generals would fit right in...

2006 Playoffs: Washington & Lee (first round loss, 42-0)
2006 Playoffs: Dickinson (first round loss, 49-21)
2005 Playoffs: Johns Hopkins (first round loss, 28-3)
2004 Playoffs: Muhlenberg (first round loss, 31-3)

You enjoy your rigorous admission standards, we'll enjoy our football.

Low down and dirty ... _{but also so true}.

[Pat Coleman]

Dude, ask your boy Hustle what they do on other message boards to people who resurrect two-month old topics of conversation.

[K-Mack]

Allright guys,
Temporarily got sucked back into WLU78 territory there and that June pissing match, but I found what I had been wanting to respond to. Just couldn't ignore it, even after all this time.

Looks like allsky might have taken care of it.

Loved the whole long W&L post, good insight. I am just going to nitpick with one part. Hope you don't mind.  

So obviously we are on the edge of being a top twenty team in Division III.

     I will have to disgree with you on one point. I think to get top 20 consideration, you must first have some post season success. Fair on not, that is kinda just the way it is. I was  a bit surprised that BC didn't make it into the top 25. Guess it doesn't really matter. It all comes down to what transpires on the field anyway.

(both posts edited)

Maybe it's no time to bring this up now, but having just spent a couple of weekends with Pat analyzing where all 238 teams fit in relation to each other, I don't think W&L is anywhere near the edge of the top 20. It's certainly not obvious.

It's actually my opinion that the Generals' performance last year, given that they ended up as the "best" team in the ODAC, brought the profile of the entire conference down. Nothing personal, just the facts:

1. 21-7 loss to 3-7 Franklin & Marshall team that finished at the bottom of the Centennial Conference.
2. 29-7 loss to 5-5 Case Western Reserve team that went 5-5 and lost to 3-7 Grove City and beat Oberlin in OT.
3. 42-0 loss against only top 25 team played, No. 14 Wilkes.

I don't think that puts you very close to the top 20.

Further, it's not only that there were bad losses last season, but the best teams W&L beat were E&H and Guilford, both 6-4 non playoff teams. Bridgewater, as you'll recall, beat W&L 27-8 in their 8-2 season but because of their two conference losses didn't get the AQ.

The only reason I bring this up is to give people perspective on just how elite the Division III top 25 is. We now number 238 teams, meaning 213 go unranked. That leaves some pretty good 7-win teams far from the top 20-25.

Our top 25 is like the Division I-A top 12, given that they number about 120 teams, or half of what we do.

You'll rarely find a team with more than one loss in the top 25 (not including playoff elimination losses), and if not for AQs, the same would go for the playoffs. Many of you are aware that two 9-1 teams were left out of last year's postseason because there there that many good teams who did not win their conferences in the mix.

It's not even necessarily about postseason success. And it's not that W&L, with good performances this year, can't reach the top 20.

I just wouldn't say right now anyone in the ODAC is "obviously" near the top 20 as we speak. As an ODAC guy, it pains me to say, but after seven years watching different conferences, I'm certain it's true.

We ranked Bridgewater 44th overall to start the year in Kickoff, and the next ODAC team was not far from W&L, who was 73rd.

That still puts the Generals in the top 30% of Division III football teams, almost, if my fast-math is correct.

Maybe I read too closely into the words "the edge" of the top 20, or maybe you think I'm making a big deal out of this.

I just remember being an ODAC-centric player and alum myself, and not knowing where we as a league really fit in nationally.

Though the competition between ODAC teams and for the title is up, the profile of the league as it compares to similar leagues is definitely down. Postseason success does factor into that, as does the performance of the league's top team(s) in high-profile games, as well as the top-to-bottom performance of the league in non-conference games.

15-14 is not the worst non-conference record. But the quality of opponent compares unfavorably to, say, the USAC, which was a conference the ODAC was ahead of just a few years ago.

The good news is these things can swing quickly. The ODAC was actually a young conference last year. This year, everyone's got at least 14 returning starters (or at least they did before the vague scandal at Death Valley broke) ... that kind of experience usually points to an up year all around, and some of the tougher schedules -- W&L chief among them -- could really have an effect on the strength of the conference in comparison to others, which in turn might have an ODAC team legitimately "obviously on the edge of the top 20" by midseason or so.

Not trying to give a pretentious lecture, although I'm long-winded. Thought you all might like to know and/or discuss.

[K-Mack]

Dude, ask your boy Hustle what they do on other message boards to people who resurrect two-month old topics of conversation.

Ask me if I care.

If it resonates and/or interests people, they will read intently and perhaps respond.

If not, they will go on about their merry days.

[K-Mack]

You must also remember that not all of us read every word on every board. I realize what it's like to be caught up and have someone post something old and out of context ... but I also think it's fairly harmless in the grand scheme of things.

The less message board police the better. Not violating the TOS? Not bothering me ... much. 

[K-Mack]

I'm I the only one anxiously waiting for the other shoe to drop on the floor?

No.

[allsky7]

Allright guys,
Temporarily got sucked back into WLU78 territory there and that June pissing match, but I found what I had been wanting to respond to. Just couldn't ignore it, even after all this time.

Looks like allsky might have taken care of it.

Loved the whole long W&L post, good insight. I am just going to nitpick with one part. Hope you don't mind.  

So obviously we are on the edge of being a top twenty team in Division III.

     I will have to disgree with you on one point. I think to get top 20 consideration, you must first have some post season success. Fair on not, that is kinda just the way it is. I was  a bit surprised that BC didn't make it into the top 25. Guess it doesn't really matter. It all comes down to what transpires on the field anyway.

(both posts edited)

Maybe it's no time to bring this up now, but having just spent a couple of weekends with Pat analyzing where all 238 teams fit in relation to each other, I don't think W&L is anywhere near the edge of the top 20. It's certainly not obvious.

It's actually my opinion that the Generals' performance last year, given that they ended up as the "best" team in the ODAC, brought the profile of the entire conference down. Nothing personal, just the facts:

1. 21-7 loss to 3-7 Franklin & Marshall team that finished at the bottom of the Centennial Conference.
2. 29-7 loss to 5-5 Case Western Reserve team that went 5-5 and lost to 3-7 Grove City and beat Oberlin in OT.
3. 42-0 loss against only top 25 team played, No. 14 Wilkes.

I don't think that puts you very close to the top 20.

Further, it's not only that there were bad losses last season, but the best teams W&L beat were E&H and Guilford, both 6-4 non playoff teams. Bridgewater, as you'll recall, beat W&L 27-8 in their 8-2 season but because of their two conference losses didn't get the AQ.

The only reason I bring this up is to give people perspective on just how elite the Division III top 25 is. We now number 238 teams, meaning 213 go unranked. That leaves some pretty good 7-win teams far from the top 20-25.

Our top 25 is like the Division I-A top 12, given that they number about 120 teams, or half of what we do.

You'll rarely find a team with more than one loss in the top 25 (not including playoff elimination losses), and if not for AQs, the same would go for the playoffs. Many of you are aware that two 9-1 teams were left out of last year's postseason because there there that many good teams who did not win their conferences in the mix.

It's not even necessarily about postseason success. And it's not that W&L, with good performances this year, can't reach the top 20.

I just wouldn't say right now anyone in the ODAC is "obviously" near the top 20 as we speak. As an ODAC guy, it pains me to say, but after seven years watching different conferences, I'm certain it's true.

We ranked Bridgewater 44th overall to start the year in Kickoff, and the next ODAC team was not far from W&L, who was 73rd.

That still puts the Generals in the top 30% of Division III football teams, almost, if my fast-math is correct.

Maybe I read too closely into the words "the edge" of the top 20, or maybe you think I'm making a big deal out of this.

I just remember being an ODAC-centric player and alum myself, and not knowing where we as a league really fit in nationally.

Though the competition between ODAC teams and for the title is up, the profile of the league as it compares to similar leagues is definitely down. Postseason success does factor into that, as does the performance of the league's top team(s) in high-profile games, as well as the top-to-bottom performance of the league in non-conference games.

15-14 is not the worst non-conference record. But the quality of opponent compares unfavorably to, say, the USAC, which was a conference the ODAC was ahead of just a few years ago.

The good news is these things can swing quickly. The ODAC was actually a young conference last year. This year, everyone's got at least 14 returning starters (or at least they did before the vague scandal at Death Valley broke) ... that kind of experience usually points to an up year all around, and some of the tougher schedules -- W&L chief among them -- could really have an effect on the strength of the conference in comparison to others, which in turn might have an ODAC team legitimately "obviously on the edge of the top 20" by midseason or so.

Not trying to give a pretentious lecture, although I'm long-winded. Thought you all might like to know and/or discuss.

     WHEW!! K-Mack... this post kept me in my target HR zone for the recommeded 30 minutes.  OK...after a drink of water and a few minutes of rest, let me just say that I concur with your post completely. E&H has had some success on the national scene, BC a bit more. The lustre from E&H's run has long worn off and BC's  is starting to dull a little. If they will regain it this year remains to be seen. IMO, to be taken seriously on the national level, you must get past the first round of the playoffs more than once. No disrespect intended to W&L. I have congratulated the Generals before on their 2006 season and I congratulate them again. What they accomplished is worthy of praise and IMO good for the ODAC.
    The ODAC is not there right now as far as the national scene goes. I would love nothing more than to stand before my beloved ODAC brethren in December and eat some crow.  Just don't see it happening right now.  8)
     BTW...In December, I would rather be eating some grilled SS chicken washed down by a tasty beverage. Crow is a little tough. 

[CNU85]

Jacket -

Who knows? I think some fans and community supporters want CNU to move up to higher levels and offer scholarships. I know Trible's stated public comments are that CNU will always be a D3 school.....but then again - he's a politician and LAWYER - so, can you believe what he says?

Sorry  about that - had to sneak in a lawyer jab, ya know!

Way old (I'm looking for something in particular), but I was also told on and off the record on my visit to CNU last year that they like D3 and have no plans to move, despite speculation.

I guess I can understand it, given that they are basically sitting pretty in many ways by comparison to a lot of the schools they compete against.

Wow...that was old......also just a final response to an ongoing discussion. It was a jab at Jacket-Lawyer after he asked about CNU's intentions. CNU will not move from D3...Trible said it, CJ said it....bank on it!

Man - I thought that was a dead topic!

[fmfdoc]

I will have to disgree with you on one point. I think to get top 20 consideration, you must first have some post season success. Fair on not, that is kinda just the way it is. I was  a bit surprised that BC didn't make it into the top 25. Guess it doesn't really matter. It all comes down to what transpires on the field anyway.

...The only reason I bring this up is to give people perspective on just how elite the Division III top 25 is. We now number 238 teams, meaning 213 go unranked. That leaves some pretty good 7-win teams far from the top 20-25.

...Our top 25 is like the Division I-A top 12, given that they number about 120 teams, or half of what we do.

...I just wouldn't say right now anyone in the ODAC is "obviously" near the top 20 as we speak. As an ODAC guy, it pains me to say, but after seven years watching different conferences, I'm certain it's true.

... Though the competition between ODAC teams and for the title is up, the profile of the league as it compares to similar leagues is definitely down. Postseason success does factor into that, as does the performance of the league's top team(s) in high-profile games, as well as the top-to-bottom performance of the league in non-conference games.

15-14 is not the worst non-conference record. But the quality of opponent compares unfavorably to, say, the USAC, which was a conference the ODAC was ahead of just a few years ago.

...Thought you all might like to know and/or discuss.

..... The ODAC is not there right now as far as the national scene goes.
[/quote]

Both quotes edited- Sorry Allsky- I botched up your quote directly above maybe I'll figure out how do to it right in a few more posts.

Good points K-Mack and Allsky7- The ODAC is a weak conference in the overall scope of the DIII landscape. It means nothing in any sport if a team consistently has perfect conference record or even undefeated season if they can't make it through a one or two rounds of the playoffs.

That is the great thing about the all teams that do not play DI football. No (well very little) controversy about who the National Champion is. It is settled on the field instead of some arbitrary computer ranking, smoke and mirrors bowl selection process. It prevents teams coming from weak conferences that have perfect records getting into the National Championship game and getting their clocks cleaned.

Having said that, how do you improve a conference so it is competitive nationally? It is difficult enough to improve a team, but how do you improve every team within a conference so they can compete nationally? It would seem like it is easier to improve a program when you are state supported or large wealthy private school with a large fan base and millions of dollars in funding at your disposal, but when you examine it further that necessarily isn't easy either.  Everyone can easily name 10 programs with gigo-bucks (sic) good facilities and legions of rabid fans that never do very well.

Recently, on this board, we have discussed the need for good facilities and you can always point to the need for a superior head coach and a great staff. However, you can have the best facilities at any level and a coach that has a playbook thicker than War and Peace, but isn't it really the caliber and quality of players you get at any level that makes the teams more competitive?

If that premise is true, then how do you go about doing that in the ODAC? ...or what is preventing it from happening now? What do schools need to do and the conference need to do to push the teams to a level of national prominence? Is it even the responsibility of the Conference Commissioner to try to get the schools to reach a national level?

Certainly, overall academically the schools in the conference are all on par as any other conference in the country. How then do you get the programs to that place where they are playing in at the current "home field" Stagg Bowl at the end of the year?

[TheEHC52]

Talked to 3L from HSC this morning who is only two years removed from the program.  From what he was told, this will only set them back this weekend and maybe next.  Like others, I'm not going to expound on the information unless HSC decides to do so.  Good luck to everyone tomorrow.

[Snakehandler]

After looking at HSC's schedule, I figured whatever was going on down there would be cleared up by the time they go to Guilford for the start of the ODAC schedule.  So, I will assume its no more than a three game suspension until otherwise noted.

[Matt Barnhart (kid)]

So, I will assume its no more than a three game suspension until otherwise noted.

That's what I was told, but also that it was "still being looked into," whatever that means.