2011 Final Four

[pbrooks3]

I'm not qualified to chime in much on this topic. I do think greater Roanoke is a gorgeous area, and if you factor in both Salem & Roanoke, there are plenty of lodging & restaurant options. Having the mountains and the Blue Ridge Parkway practically in Salem's backyard adds points to the venue for someone like myself who enjoys seeing the sites in addition watching basketball.  Some decent wineries in the region are another plus.  

[DIIIghetto]

Thanks for all of the feedback.  It looks like some folks in Salem have found a very successful system for submitting successful bids.  I brought it up primarily because Salem has never seemed like the best venue for DIII to market a great tournament.  It is such a difficult place to get to that without a passionate local fan base, it doesn't seem to me like this venue will ever be the best we can do. 

Let's all push Hope & Calvin to start a competitive rivalry for hosting this because the thought of the Final Four in either of those great gyms is the kind of thing lots of folks would be excited about.

[Gregory Sager]

Calvin actually used to host the D3 men's Final Four back in the mid-Eighties. That's where we Vikings fans went when North Park won national championships #4 and #5.

The tournament started at Albright College in Reading, PA in the mid-Seventies, then moved out to the midwest to Augustana College in Rock Island, IL in the late Seventies and early Eighties. At that point in D3's history, that was probably a bit too far west for the D3 constituency; most of the current West Region teams and probably half of the current Midwest Region teams were still NAIA at that point.

It then went to Grand Rapids with Calvin as the host school, then on to Wittenberg University in Springfield, OH in the early Nineties, and then briefly on to Buffalo, NY (not sure what venue was used in the Queen City, but if they used Buffalo State Sports Arena -- the home of D3's Bengals -- it seats about 3,500) before it moved to Salem later in the Nineties.

[John Gleich]

Thanks for all of the feedback.  It looks like some folks in Salem have found a very successful system for submitting successful bids.  I brought it up primarily because Salem has never seemed like the best venue for DIII to market a great tournament.  It is such a difficult place to get to that without a passionate local fan base, it doesn't seem to me like this venue will ever be the best we can do. 

Let's all push Hope & Calvin to start a competitive rivalry for hosting this because the thought of the Final Four in either of those great gyms is the kind of thing lots of folks would be excited about.

The ODAC is the host conference and actually plays their conference tournament games (or at least the championship, not 100% sure) at the Salem Civic Center.

And while it seems like there isn't a D-III school in Salem, there actually is... Roanoke College is located in Salem. 

Just to throw my two cents in... both times we went to Salem, we were treated very, very well.  Our host family was the Sheriff and his wife and they treated us right.  They actually came out to Stevens Point for a game or two after our trips there.


And while I agree that Hope and Calvin have great facilities, I kind of like the truly neutral site.  Yes, it's pretty far away, especially from some of the midwest D-III powers... but we had plenty of a contingent there and I know Platteville brought lots too.  Of course, if an ODAC team is there, then the crowd will be the biggest (I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!), but if your team is good enough for Salem, I think the fans will make the trip.

[Gregory Sager]

I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)

That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.

[John Gleich]

I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)

That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.

Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!

[Gregory Sager]

I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)

That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.

Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!

I actually think that multiple-overtime games have a different flavor than single-overtime games, because you start to see some serious attrition issues in terms of players fouling out, and the remaining energy levels of the primary players becomes a big factor. But that's just me.

[KnightSlappy]

Thanks for all of the feedback.  It looks like some folks in Salem have found a very successful system for submitting successful bids.  I brought it up primarily because Salem has never seemed like the best venue for DIII to market a great tournament.  It is such a difficult place to get to that without a passionate local fan base, it doesn't seem to me like this venue will ever be the best we can do. 

Let's all push Hope & Calvin to start a competitive rivalry for hosting this because the thought of the Final Four in either of those great gyms is the kind of thing lots of folks would be excited about.

The ODAC is the host conference and actually plays their conference tournament games (or at least the championship, not 100% sure) at the Salem Civic Center.

And while it seems like there isn't a D-III school in Salem, there actually is... Roanoke College is located in Salem. 

Just to throw my two cents in... both times we went to Salem, we were treated very, very well.  Our host family was the Sheriff and his wife and they treated us right.  They actually came out to Stevens Point for a game or two after our trips there.


And while I agree that Hope and Calvin have great facilities, I kind of like the truly neutral site.  Yes, it's pretty far away, especially from some of the midwest D-III powers... but we had plenty of a contingent there and I know Platteville brought lots too.  Of course, if an ODAC team is there, then the crowd will be the biggest (I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!), but if your team is good enough for Salem, I think the fans will make the trip.

Why is Salem more neutral than Grand Rapids? Like you said, there is a D3 team in Salem that could play a nearly home game, and the ODAC uses it for it's conference tournament. Was it very neutral when Virginia Wesleyan won the title a few years back?

Or do you mean that Roanoke doesn't actually play in the Civic Center, so no one makes it their home? If that's the case, the Van Andel arena in downtown Grand Rapids would be a good facility, although at nearly 11,000 capacity it may be a bit too large for the event.

Grand Rapids is very driveable for much of the great lakes region, the midwest region and even most of the WIAC, plus the Gerald R Ford airport can easily accommodate all of the necessary flights. The city of Grand Rapids, and downtown area is big enough to afford all of the amenities of a major city, without the huge city headaches. I feel it's good sized to support and rally around this type of event without it getting lost in the media shuffle of DI college or professional sports.

The downside to Grand Rapids in late March is the weather. You never know what you're gonna get. Record highs are in the upper 70s to low 80s, but the record lows are around 0 (average high temperatures are in the upper 40s.)

To be fair, the Civic Center was in Borat, so that's a plus.

[John Gleich]

I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)

That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.

Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!

I actually think that multiple-overtime games have a different flavor than single-overtime games, because you start to see some serious attrition issues in terms of players fouling out, and the remaining energy levels of the primary players becomes a big factor. But that's just me.

But... double overtime is still overtime!


And I don't disagree with you, I just don't want to be wrong!

[KnightSlappy]

I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)

That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.

Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!

I actually think that multiple-overtime games have a different flavor than single-overtime games, because you start to see some serious attrition issues in terms of players fouling out, and the remaining energy levels of the primary players becomes a big factor. But that's just me.

That's from the extra salt. Players get sweattier in multiple overtime games.

[Gregory Sager]

I think it was in 99 with the Hampden-Sydney/Platteville final where they had the biggest crowd in Salem, and that one went to OT too... they saw a great game!)

That '99 final actually went to double overtime, with UW-Platteville winning by a single point, 76-75.

Hey, double overtime is still overtime... there's just MORE of it!

I actually think that multiple-overtime games have a different flavor than single-overtime games, because you start to see some serious attrition issues in terms of players fouling out, and the remaining energy levels of the primary players becomes a big factor. But that's just me.

That's from the extra salt. Players get sweattier in multiple overtime games.

Blecch. Thanks for ruining my late dinner, O Dean of KSU.

[sac]

I think the D3 tournament would be more well served to be on a college campus.  The Salem facility is fine but it lacks the college feel in a big way.  But it won't bother me too much if it continues to be there for several years to come.

Hopeconvert mentioned the poor seating at Salem, the two facilities at Hope and Calvin are at least 1 1/2 intimate  (Calvin's lower bowl is excellent).......both facilities have a much better college atmosphere to them.......but these facilities are also a rarity in D3 at least excessive quality wise.

Who knows if either is interested in a long term arrangement, hosting these events is a big production.

[John Gleich]

I think the D3 tournament would be more well served to be on a college campus.  The Salem facility is fine but it lacks the college feel in a big way.  But it won't bother me too much if it continues to be there for several years to come.

Hopeconvert mentioned the poor seating at Salem, the two facilities at Hope and Calvin are at least 1 1/2 intimate  (Calvin's lower bowl is excellent).......both facilities have a much better college atmosphere to them.......but these facilities are also a rarity in D3 at least excessive quality wise.

Who knows if either is interested in a long term arrangement, hosting these events is a big production.

I don't know how much of an impact it would have... but one thing about Salem is that it's never been 100% full.  The Salem Civic Center seats 6800 (and the most that it's held in a D-III game is 5k I think...).  The size does allow for each school to have a section (at least both years I was there this was the case) so even though it was a large venue, all of the fans were pretty much in one general area. I don't think you could necessarily have that at Calvin or at Hope if all 4 teams brought 1500 people.  It's possible that they could empty the gym in between games (or it may not be necessary, depending how many people would stay for the other game)...

As an aside, I actually see Calvin and Hope's gyms differently.  I think (all based on pictures, I haven't been to either) that Hope's is more like a really nice D-III gym and it has a more homey feel... but that Calvin's is more like a D-I gym and feels more sterile and less "Calvin..."  I don't know how else to describe it.

I think a big part of that has to do with the fact that Hope has the single level and Calvin has 2 levels.  And despite the fact that it may feel less like a D-III gym, the fact of the matter is that it's still on campus, which gives it back some of that college feel.

[John Gleich]

As an aside... I didn't really like the temporary floor that they had in Salem.  The floor seemed loose, which obviously wouldn't happen in a permanent facility.  I don't think that it had any impact, but it is one thing I didn't like.

[Titan Q]

I don't know how much of an impact it would have... but one thing about Salem is that it's never been 100% full.  The Salem Civic Center seats 6800 (and the most that it's held in a D-III game is 5k I think...).  The size does allow for each school to have a section (at least both years I was there this was the case) so even though it was a large venue, all of the fans were pretty much in one general area. I don't think you could necessarily have that at Calvin or at Hope if all 4 teams brought 1500 people.  It's possible that they could empty the gym in between games (or it may not be necessary, depending how many people would stay for the other game)...

I think the average attendance in Salem the last few years (for both semifinal and championship nights) has been about 2500 or so.  Any facility that seats 3500 or so is plenty big really.

There are no programs in Division III that would have 1500 fans at the Final Four...unless it was held in their own gym.  In the Salem Era, Illinois Wesleyan, Hope, and Calvin have traveled the best probably, but I don't think any of the 3 has ever had 1000 there.  Maybe 900 or so.  I think a place like Hope's could easily have sections for each school.

I'm a huge Salem fan...all involved have done a great job over the years.  That said, the crowds the last few years have been poor and thus, the atmosphere has suffered.  I'm parital to Salem, but maybe it's time.