2011 Final Four

[sac]

As an aside, I actually see Calvin and Hope's gyms differently.  I think (all based on pictures, I haven't been to either) that Hope's is more like a really nice D-III gym and it has a more homey feel... but that Calvin's is more like a D-I gym and feels more sterile and less "Calvin..."  I don't know how else to describe it.

I think a big part of that has to do with the fact that Hope has the single level and Calvin has 2 levels.  And despite the fact that it may feel less like a D-III gym, the fact of the matter is that it's still on campus, which gives it back some of that college feel.

You are absolutely correct in your assessment, but I'll state again that Calvin's lower bowl is excellent and every bit the intimate atmosphere as Hope's DeVos Fieldhouse but only seats a little more than 1,000.

[Pat Coleman]

PointSpecial: They replaced the floor since the last time UWSP was there. In fact, they consistently make changes and upgrades to the Salem Civic Center. In the past few years they've replaced that awful padding on the walls behind the baskets, replaced the floor, replaced the scoreboard and replaced all the seats.

[Titan Q]

Here is a list of the teams that have made it to the Division III Final Four in the Salem Era (1995-96 through 2008-09):

Amherst 4 (2004, 2006, 2007, 2008) - NESCAC
Illinois Wesleyan 4 (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006) - CCIW
Williams 4 (1997, 1998, 2003, 2004) - NESCAC
Franklin & Marshall 3 (1996, 2000, 2009) - Centennial
Hope 3 (1996, 1998, 2008) - MIAA
Washington U. 3 (2007, 2008, 2009) - UAA
Calvin 2 (2000, 2005) - MIAA
Hampden-Sydney 2 (1999, 2003) - ODAC
Rochester 2 (2002, 2005) - UAA
UW-Platteville 2 (1998, 1999) - WIAC
UW-Stevens Point 2 (2004, 2005) - WIAC
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2006) - ODAC
William Paterson 2 (1999, 2001) - NJAC
Wooster 2 (2003, 2007) - NCAC
Alvernia 1 (1997) - MACF
Carthage 1 (2002) - CCIW
Catholic 1 (2001) - LAND
Connecticut College 1 (1999) - NESCAC
Elizabethtown 1 (2002) - MACC
Guilford 1 (2009) - ODAC
Gustavus Adolphus 1 (2003) - MIAC
John Carroll 1 (2004) - OAC
Nebraska Wesleyan 1 (1997) - ind
Ohio Northern 1 (2001) - OAC
Otterbein 1 (2002) - OAC
Richard Stockton 1 (2009) - NJAC
Rowan 1 (1996) - NJAC
Salem St 1 (2000) - MASCAC
Ursinus 1 (2008) - Centennial
UW-Eau Claire 1 (2000) - WIAC
Wilkes 1 (1997) - MACF
Wittenberg 1 (2006) - NCAC
York (Pa) 1 (2005) – CAC

[Ralph Turner]

Here is a list of the teams that have made it to the Division III Final Four in the Salem Era (1995-96 through 2008-09):

Amherst 4 (2004, 2006, 2007, 2008) - NESCAC
Illinois Wesleyan 4 (1996, 1997, 2001, 2006) - CCIW
Williams 4 (1997, 1998, 2003, 2004) - NESCAC
Franklin & Marshall 3 (1996, 2000, 2009) - Centennial
Hope 3 (1996, 1998, 2008) - MIAA
Washington U. 3 (2007, 2008, 2009) - UAA
Calvin 2 (2000, 2005) - MIAA
Hampden-Sydney 2 (1999, 2003) - ODAC
Rochester 2 (2002, 2005) - UAA
UW-Platteville 2 (1998, 1999) - WIAC
UW-Stevens Point 2 (2004, 2005) - WIAC
Virginia Wesleyan 2 (2006, 2006) - ODAC
William Paterson 2 (1999, 2001) - NJAC
Wooster 2 (2003, 2007) - NCAC
Alvernia 1 (1997) - MACF
Carthage 1 (2002) - CCIW
Catholic 1 (2001) - CAC/LAND
Connecticut College 1 (1999) - NESCAC
Elizabethtown 1 (2002) - MACC
Guilford 1 (2009) - ODAC
Gustavus Adolphus 1 (2003) - MIAC
John Carroll 1 (2004) - OAC
Nebraska Wesleyan 1 (1997) - ind
Ohio Northern 1 (2001) - OAC
Otterbein 1 (2002) - OAC
Richard Stockton 1 (2009) - NJAC
Rowan 1 (1996) - NJAC
Salem St 1 (2000) - MASCAC
Ursinus 1 (2008) - Centennial
UW-Eau Claire 1 (2000) - WIAC
Wilkes 1 (1997) - MACF
Wittenberg 1 (2006) - NCAC
York (Pa) 1 (2005) – CAC

Most accurately, Catholic was a member of the CAC when they won in 2001.

Are there any other clarifications?

[Titan Q]

Miscellaneous notes on the above teams.

Average travel to Salem for the 56 entrants = 552 miles
(using: https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles)


Longest trip – 1121 miles (Nebraska Wesleyan, 1997)
Shortest trip – 102 miles (Guilford, 2009)


56 participants by state (counting Amherst 4 times, IWU 4 times, etc):

Massachusetts: 9
Pennsylvania: 8
Ohio: 6
Wisconsin: 6
Michigan: 5
Illinois: 4
New Jersey: 4
Virginia: 4
Missouri: 3
New York: 2
Connecticut: 1
DC: 1
Minnesota: 1
North Carolina: 1
Nebraska: 1

Distribution by U.S. geographic regions:
(Abritrarily using: http://www.22q13.org/images/resources/usmap.jpg)

Midwest (OH, MI, IL, IN, MO, IA, WI): 25
Northeast (PA and up): 24
East/Southeast (including DC, VA, NC): 6
Northwest (west and north of MO/IA: 1
Southwest: 0

[Titan Q]

Most accurately, Catholic was a member of the CAC when they won in 2001.

Are there any other clarifications?

Thanks Ralph.  I was actually trying to slot teams based on where they currently reside. 

[Titan Q]

Speaking strictly from a geographic standpoint, it seems like Ohio would be an ideal state to host the D3 Final Four.

[Ralph Turner]

Most accurately, Catholic was a member of the CAC when they won in 2001.

Are there any other clarifications?

Thanks Ralph.  I was actually trying to slot teams based on where they currently reside.  

Oh, thank you.  Great information.

I appreciate your doing this.

[Titan Q]

One other thought about location...

In my opinion, the location should either be 1) as centrally located as possible (Ohio for example), OR 2) located near a major airport.  (Nailing both would be ideal....Salem is neither.)

The problem with Salem, geographically, is that it is not as easy place for fans to get to with short notice.  In other words, your teams wins a Sectional final game on Saturday night at 9:00pm or so.  You only have about 4 days (Sunday-Wednesday) to finalize travel plans.  As indicated above, many schools are located a good 10+ hour drive away from Salem, VA.  That's really tough to pull off for many...especially considering the semifinal games start at about 5:00pm on Friday.  So then you look into flying.  While the airport in Roanoke is very nice as far as small, regional airports go, the fact is that it is, well, a small, regional airport.  Two big problems: 1) Flight options are limited, and 2) When booking with just 3-4 days notice, airfare is out of control - like $700 or so (typically more out of control than flying into a major airport with extremely short notice).  Greensboro is an option to fly into (I went that route once), but it's a 1:30 drive to Salem.

For someone like me who plans a trip to the D3 Final Four every year, and purchases airfare months out, getting to Salem isn't bad at all.  But for the fan who wants to follow their team, I think Salem can be a tough place to get to.  I'm guessing all of the "hardcore" fans (including families) find a way to get there regardless of difficulties...but I think we lose at lot of the more casual fans of each school.

[KnightSlappy]

I don't know how much of an impact it would have... but one thing about Salem is that it's never been 100% full.  The Salem Civic Center seats 6800 (and the most that it's held in a D-III game is 5k I think...).  The size does allow for each school to have a section (at least both years I was there this was the case) so even though it was a large venue, all of the fans were pretty much in one general area. I don't think you could necessarily have that at Calvin or at Hope if all 4 teams brought 1500 people.  It's possible that they could empty the gym in between games (or it may not be necessary, depending how many people would stay for the other game)...

I think the average attendance in Salem the last few years (for both semifinal and championship nights) has been about 2500 or so.  Any facility that seats 3500 or so is plenty big really.

There are no programs in Division III that would have 1500 fans at the Final Four...unless it was held in their own gym.  In the Salem Era, Illinois Wesleyan, Hope, and Calvin have traveled the best probably, but I don't think any of the 3 has ever had 1000 there.  Maybe 900 or so.  I think a place like Hope's could easily have sections for each school.

I'm a huge Salem fan...all involved have done a great job over the years.  That said, the crowds the last few years have been poor and thus, the atmosphere has suffered.  I'm parital to Salem, but maybe it's time.

Although if Calvin/Hope made it to a final four in the Holland/Grand Rapids area, Hope's DeVos Fieldhouse and Calvin's Van Noord Arena may both be too small.

[David Collinge]

One nice thing about Salem that gets overlooked (I think) is that the Civic Center is built just for events like this.  On-campus gyms tend to be built to serve mostly students and local folks who will be there for 2 hours, not long-distance travelers who will stay for a weekend.  Campus gyms are generally part of a larger multi-use PE complex, whereas everything about the Civic Center points to the basketball arena as the focal point of activity.  It has a huge parking lot, hospitality rooms, concession stands in four places, large lobby, etc., amenities on-campus facilites (at the D3 level) tend to lack.

Speaking strictly from a geographic standpoint, it seems like Ohio would be an ideal state to host the D3 Final Four.

Wittenberg used to host the finals.  I'm not sure how well that would work these days.  The gym itself is acceptable (3000 seats, not as comfy as Salem) but it's not an arena with the amenities that the Civic Center has.  It's near Dayton, but I don't think that's much of an improvement over Roanoke, airport-wise.  Columbus, Cincinnati, and Indianapolis are within a few hours, like the Mid-Atlantic airports are to Salem.  I can't even begin to imagine the parking problems there might be for a Final Four at Pam Evans Smith Arena. 

IIRC, Wooster has the only other on-campus gym of the correct size (about 3200), but all of the problems Witt has are worse for Wooster: farther from airport, smaller city, no parking, etc.  Unlike the Salem/Roanoke area, Wooster really doesn't have enough hotels or restaurants.

I can't think of an off-campus facility in any of the major cities that wouldn't be overwhelmingly too large.  Maybe an on-campus arena for a MAC-type D1 team?  Ohio U. has a facility that would be perfect, but Athens is even harder to get to than Salem.  I don't know about the gyms at Akron, Toledo, etc.

I don't see an obvious Ohio-based solution here.

[Just Bill]

I've always thought the La Crosse Center in La Crosse, Wis. would make a great venue for a Final Four.  In fact, I believe they unsuccesfully bid on the Women's D-III Final Four a few years ago.  La Crosse is a D-III town but not a major metro where the event would get lost in the noise.  It has a decent airport with additional access to larger airports (Madison, Minneapolis). The arena is in a great downtown location with lots of hotels. 

http://www.lacrossecenter.com/index.aspx?nid=74

(This is not where UW-La Crosse plays)

[John Gleich]

Miscellaneous notes on the above teams.

Average travel to Salem for the 56 entrants = 552 miles
(using: https://web1.ncaa.org/TES/exec/miles)


Longest trip – 1121 miles (Nebraska Wesleyan, 1997)
Shortest trip – 102 miles (Guilford, 2009)

I wonder what the median is for distance...  Neb Wesleyan is kind of out on an island, and if a SCIAC or NWC team ever make it, they would severely skew the results in terms of a mean.

I don't know if the rules are different for the final 4, but teams that are more than 500 miles (I think that's the distance...) would fly as opposed to being bussed. 

Even if the the Final 4 was at Wittenberg or Wooster, a team like Stevens Point would still fly... but that would bring Illinois and Michigan within driving distance.  Amherst and Williams would still fly too.

I wonder if there's a cheaper destination, in terms of teams flying there...  Would Ohio be that, or not?

[Titan Q]

One nice thing about Salem that gets overlooked (I think) is that the Civic Center is built just for events like this.  On-campus gyms tend to be built to serve mostly students and local folks who will be there for 2 hours, not long-distance travelers who will stay for a weekend.  Campus gyms are generally part of a larger multi-use PE complex, whereas everything about the Civic Center points to the basketball arena as the focal point of activity.  It has a huge parking lot, hospitality rooms, concession stands in four places, large lobby, etc., amenities on-campus facilites (at the D3 level) tend to lack.

I agree, David.  I like the civic center-type facility much better than something on-campus.  I'm almost to the point though where I'd be willing to give in on some of the amenities in exchange for better geographic location.  I'm just bothered by crowds for the national semifinal and national championship games that are in the 2400 neighborhood.

Bloomington, IL has U.S. Cellular Colliseum...

http://www.uscellularcoliseum.com/facility/gallery/index.html?c=1&id=7&t=9

Great facility in a D3 town, but I don't think Bloomington is all that much better in terms of travel than Salem.

I'd also be nice to host in a strong D3 community where you could pull in a local base of 500-750 fans.  I don't think the locals in Roanoke-Salem embrace the D3 Final Four all that much.

I don't really have many solutions here unfortunately.

[John Gleich]

I'd also be nice to host in a strong D3 community where you could pull in a local base of 500-750 fans.  I don't think the locals in Roanoke-Salem embrace the D3 Final Four all that much.

Our second year in Salem, we were watching the first semi-final game before ours and I noticed a guy in his 30's with a couple of kids.  They were sitting behind one of the baskets and I asked them who they were rooting for.  He said they were locals and they'd come the past few years.

I don't know how many locals would do that, and I agree that you'd likely get more in a bigger D-III hotbed, but I'm not sure how much the Final Four is marketed in the local Salem area.  I know it's covered in the papers and stuff... but I don't know other than that.  It seems like a little more marketing might get some more locals interested.