2011 Final Four

[Gregory Sager]

Tough to figure where this post should go - this seemed better than most.

George Mason became the first double-digit seed to make the d1 FF in 20 years (and the previous was LSU, so they are the first 'mid-major' double-digit seed ever), and this is the first year since d1 went to 64 teams that no #1 seed was in the FF.

Since d3 doesn't officially seed teams, these are hard questions to research. 

Would other posters feel that d3 has ever had the 'equivalent' of a 'double-digit' seed in the FF?

Do you think the d3 FF has ever lacked a #1 seed?

These aren't just hard questions to research, they're hard questions to answer. It's well-nigh impossible to come up with definitive responses, due to the lack of published seeds.

I'd always thought that if there was ever anything close to a double-digit seed that made the D3 tourney's Final Four it would be the 1997 Alvernia team. It was a 64-team tourney that year, for one thing, which meant more lowly-seeded squads than normal. More importantly, it's the first and only time that a PAC team has even come close to the Final Four; the PAC is a league that gets little or no respect from its Middle Atlantic peers. However, after looking at some website archives, it appears that Alvernia might've been seeded fairly high that year; the Crusaders entered the tournament with a 22-4 record, and their first-round opponent, Lebanon Valley, was 17-10.

The second question is even harder to answer than the first. In fact, I'll go ahead and say that it's impossible to answer.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

In 2003 Pat had GAC listed as the 9, which, since they aren't published, could very well have been a 10.

[diehardfan]

Here is another question, also figured this was the best forum to ask:

Has it ever happened before that a state was represented in all three divisions of men's basketball at the final 4 in the same season.

D3  --  Va. Wesleyan
D2  --  Virginia Union
D1  --  George Mason ( never would have crossed my mind to be the D1 making it that far.)

If that is not enough to think about:
NIT  --  ODU

I think it's been a pretty unique post-season for men's basketball in Va. this year.

It must be because I  moved away. 

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

D1  --  George Mason ( never would have crossed my mind to be the D1 making it that far.)

So you mean pre-season would not be the team from VA to get that far?  George Mason was the only team from Virginia in the D1 tournament.  If anyone was going to make it from VA, it would have had to be them.

I guess I'm looking for clarification on that statement.


(I also wanted to check and see what other VA schools participated in tournaments but didn't get to the final four (ie RM-C), but I have no clue where any of those d2 schools are from, so I gave up.

[ncbballfan]

With D1 schools like UVA and Va. Tech, as well as ODU with Loughton, Hunter, and Williamson returning from last year's squad that lost to Mich. St. in the1st round, I would have figured it would have been one of those 3, if any Va. school.   

Not knocking what GMU has accomplished, I think it's fantastic, just saying I would have never imagined them getting this far.

Now since GMU was the lone Va. representative, you're right, only possible team to pull it off.

As far as other Va. schools in tournaments,
D3 men's  --  VWC, RMC, CNU
D2 men's  --  Va. Union
D1 Men's  --  GMU
NIT men's  --  UVA, ODU

D3 women's  --  Bridgewater & Mary Washington (both lost in sweet 16), RMC (lost in elite 8)
D2 women's  --  couldn't find any
D1 women's  --  ODU, Va. Tech

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

So none of those schools with wacked out and crazy names in the d-II tournament were from Virginia, besides the obvious one?

[Mr. Ypsi]

Tough to figure where this post should go - this seemed better than most.

George Mason became the first double-digit seed to make the d1 FF in 20 years (and the previous was LSU, so they are the first 'mid-major' double-digit seed ever), and this is the first year since d1 went to 64 teams that no #1 seed was in the FF.

Since d3 doesn't officially seed teams, these are hard questions to research. 

Would other posters feel that d3 has ever had the 'equivalent' of a 'double-digit' seed in the FF?

Do you think the d3 FF has ever lacked a #1 seed?

These aren't just hard questions to research, they're hard questions to answer. It's well-nigh impossible to come up with definitive responses, due to the lack of published seeds.

I'd always thought that if there was ever anything close to a double-digit seed that made the D3 tourney's Final Four it would be the 1997 Alvernia team. It was a 64-team tourney that year, for one thing, which meant more lowly-seeded squads than normal. More importantly, it's the first and only time that a PAC team has even come close to the Final Four; the PAC is a league that gets little or no respect from its Middle Atlantic peers. However, after looking at some website archives, it appears that Alvernia might've been seeded fairly high that year; the Crusaders entered the tournament with a 22-4 record, and their first-round opponent, Lebanon Valley, was 17-10.

The second question is even harder to answer than the first. In fact, I'll go ahead and say that it's impossible to answer.

Without posted seeds, it surely is impossible to definitely answer - but there are two surrogates that could be used.

#1 is Pat's poll (certainly NOT a good surrogate since it is 'officially' irrelevant, highly ranked teams often meet well before the FF, and it only goes back to 2000).  Using this measure, 2001 seems the only possible candidate lately - ONU was #3, but no other FF team was in the top ten.  [BTW, kudos to Pat's voters (and I'm sure joy to him) - his beloved Catholic (ranked 14th in 2001) is the ONLY national champion so far not ranked in the top 10 of the final regular season poll!  And over 50% of FF teams have been in the top ten (over 60% if you extend to the top eleven).  Good predictions, guys!]

The more relevant (though far from perfect) surrogate is sectional hosts.  Since these are not selected 'til after the second round, the actual #1 seed may have already lost (but, as with d1, I imagine it is fairly rare for a #1 not to survive the first weekend).  Likewise, of course, there are geographical and gym-size considerations.  But I think the sectional host is USUALLY the #1 seed. 

Do others think this is often enough true to be worth the trouble of checking sectional hosts and FF teams, or would this be an exercise in irrelevancy?!

[Coach C]

Hoops Fan -

I never thought about it, but gosh, you're right.  What a collection of oddly named schools in D2.

C

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Hoops Fan -

I never thought about it, but gosh, you're right.  What a collection of oddly named schools in D2.

C

I know its like reading Cyrillic.

[Knightstalker]

Here is another question, also figured this was the best forum to ask:

Has it ever happened before that a state was represented in all three divisions of men's basketball at the final 4 in the same season.

D3  --  Va. Wesleyan
D2  --  Virginia Union
D1  --  George Mason ( never would have crossed my mind to be the D1 making it that far.)

If that is not enough to think about:
NIT  --  ODU

I think it's been a pretty unique post-season for men's basketball in Va. this year.

It must be because I  moved away. 

Two CAC teams in final fours, GMU in the NCAA and ODU in the NIT FF.  Not bad for a mid-major conference and I still think Hofstra should have been in the NCAA tournament.  The Hofstra players and coaches have to be thinking they could have performed as well as GMU in the tournament.

[Greek Tragedy]

Has it ever happened before that a state was represented in all three divisions of men's basketball at the final 4 in the same season.

Wisconsin only had one D2 team, UW-Parkside, and they aren't very good!

Hockey though...

D1 women's champs-Wisconsin
D1 men's Final Four-Wisconsin
D3-men's Finalist-St. Norbert (WI)
D3-women's Final Four-UW-Stevens Point

Is that close?  No D2 hockey schools in Wisconsin.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

No, I don't think hockey counts, since there are so few states with participating schools.  There are probably a decent number of states who could boast something similar.



Now football might be a sport I'd consider accepting as valid, although its hard to know who the "final four" is in D1.

[Mr. Ypsi]

I don't know how current these numbers are, but I recorded the # of d3 schools for all sports a year or so ago.  There are only 68 men's hockey teams (vs 394 bball, 231 fb); there are (were) only 43 women's hockey teams (vs 425 bball).

Baseball/softball might be an option - 359/396.  If LAX is still growing as fast as it was, it might soon be an option - 130/153.  Swimming has the numbers (191/235), but it is ALWAYS Kenyon, so what's the point!  Tennis has 313/360.  Cross Country 348/377.  Indoor track 218/226.  Outdoor track 248/257.  Golf 270/145.  And, of course, soccer 381/406.

[Ryan Scott (Hoops Fan)]

Soccer would work and honestly I wouldn't mind hockey if there was an even spread of hockey teams across the d3 participation area, but the hockey teams are generally relegated to just a few states, which gives those states an edge when we're talking about state representation in final fours.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Soccer would work and honestly I wouldn't mind hockey if there was an even spread of hockey teams across the d3 participation area, but the hockey teams are generally relegated to just a few states, which gives those states an edge when we're talking about state representation in final fours.

Re: hockey:

Ralph, what's up with the lack of hockey teams in Texas?!  Hasn't the extraordinary success and attendance at Dallas (North)Stars, LA Kings, Tampa Bay Lightening, etc., made it clear that hockey is soon to replace football as THE sport in the sunbelt?

And don't give me that 'crap' about how hard it is to keep ice hockey from turning into water polo on a d3 budget - if you weren't just SCARED of Wisconsin, Minnesota, etc., you'd find a way.

We demand ASC hockey!