East Region Playoff Discussion

[theoriginalupstate]

Maybe my column this week will be how bad the east has freakin gacked it this year. Jesus Christ.

I wouldn't quite put it like that...

You could say how schizophrenic the East is or something along those lines...

[tecmobowler]

I think most that most here know that very few teams over the past ten years could hang with Mount Union.  I understand the idea behind pointing out the sillyness of posters lamenting over a season that will inevitably end to Mount, when in the past, our years have.... ended to Mount. 

With that said, I think a lot of the frustration in here boils down to the level of football being played.  Most on here have been around long enough to compare the current level of play to a good number of years.  Just off the top of my head, it's clear that teams such as Ithaca, Cortland, RPI, Hobart, Union, Fisher, Springfield, Brockport, Rowan... are down significantly compared to teams not too many years ago. 

While the past and current teams may still all add up to losses to Mount, there's something to be said for quality football being played.  It's fun to watch your school have playmakers on offense and defense, have an explosive offense, a shutdown defense, an incredible wideout, a QB that can make all the throws.. and there just hasn't been too much of that this.  There's a certain level of disappointment as I believe many around here just a short time ago, including myself, thought a number of teams out of the East were just about ready to compete on the national level.  Five or six years later, we seem a very long way from that..

[dlippiel]

I think most that most here know that very few teams over the past ten years could hang with Mount Union.  I understand the idea behind pointing out the sillyness of posters lamenting over a season that will inevitably end to Mount, when in the past, our years have.... ended to Mount. 

With that said, I think a lot of the frustration in here boils down to the level of football being played.  Most on here have been around long enough to compare the current level of play to a good number of years.  Just off the top of my head, it's clear that teams such as Ithaca, Cortland, RPI, Hobart, Union, Fisher, Springfield, Brockport, Rowan... are down significantly compared to teams not too many years ago. 

While the past and current teams may still all add up to losses to Mount, there's something to be said for quality football being played.  It's fun to watch your school have playmakers on offense and defense, have an explosive offense, a shutdown defense, an incredible wideout, a QB that can make all the throws.. and there just hasn't been too much of that this.  There's a certain level of disappointment as I believe many around here just a short time ago, including myself, thought a number of teams out of the East were just about ready to compete on the national level.  Five or six years later, we seem a very long way from that..

Very well said tecmo, +k

[pumkinattack]

The problem we are all afflicted with is that we assume linear upward progression, which is just much less frequently the case than thought.  That's why everyone talks about Utica and Rochester taking a step up and competing (Rochester's been a perennial potential sleeper for the entire decade).    

[dlippiel]

I think most that most here know that very few teams over the past ten years could hang with Mount Union.  I understand the idea behind pointing out the sillyness of posters lamenting over a season that will inevitably end to Mount, when in the past, our years have.... ended to Mount. 

With that said, I think a lot of the frustration in here boils down to the level of football being played.  Most on here have been around long enough to compare the current level of play to a good number of years.  Just off the top of my head, it's clear that teams such as Ithaca, Cortland, RPI, Hobart, Union, Fisher, Springfield, Brockport, Rowan... are down significantly compared to teams not too many years ago. 

While the past and current teams may still all add up to losses to Mount, there's something to be said for quality football being played.  It's fun to watch your school have playmakers on offense and defense, have an explosive offense, a shutdown defense, an incredible wideout, a QB that can make all the throws.. and there just hasn't been too much of that this.  There's a certain level of disappointment as I believe many around here just a short time ago, including myself, thought a number of teams out of the East were just about ready to compete on the national level.  Five or six years later, we seem a very long way from that..

Very well said tecmo, +k

After yesterdays results dlip is felling very frustrated with the "level" of play in the east here in 09. You make a great point that many of us have been around and thought, at one point, we were getting closer. Yet this year it seems very obvious to dlip that we as a region are just not there. dlip thinks the way you put it in your post makes perfect sense and is a respectful way to describe how many of us feel. dlip does not want to sit here and hammer the east for what good will it do? Yet, when looking in the mirror, we see Del Val, who is probably now our top team, who we already know could not hang with Wesley. Yes dlip knows Del Val has improved, but ****, so has Wesley. Let's just ****in hope the level of football grows in 10' and works it way a bit closer to the national stage.

[theoriginalupstate]

The problem we are all afflicted with is that we assume linear upward progression, which is just much less frequently the case than thought.  That's why everyone talks about Utica and Rochester taking a step up and competing (Rochester's been a perennial potential sleeper for the entire decade).    

UR and UC are the Houston Texans of the LL and E8...

[JT]

Or how close Kean is to winning a conference title.  Or how Montclair has turned around its season after the opening loss.

Kean last won the NJAC outright in 1987.  They tied Trenton State College (College of NJ) in 1994 for the title.

[RJ]

I think most that most here know that very few teams over the past ten years could hang with Mount Union.  I understand the idea behind pointing out the sillyness of posters lamenting over a season that will inevitably end to Mount, when in the past, our years have.... ended to Mount. 

With that said, I think a lot of the frustration in here boils down to the level of football being played.  Most on here have been around long enough to compare the current level of play to a good number of years.  Just off the top of my head, it's clear that teams such as Ithaca, Cortland, RPI, Hobart, Union, Fisher, Springfield, Brockport, Rowan... are down significantly compared to teams not too many years ago. 

While the past and current teams may still all add up to losses to Mount, there's something to be said for quality football being played.  It's fun to watch your school have playmakers on offense and defense, have an explosive offense, a shutdown defense, an incredible wideout, a QB that can make all the throws.. and there just hasn't been too much of that this.  There's a certain level of disappointment as I believe many around here just a short time ago, including myself, thought a number of teams out of the East were just about ready to compete on the national level.  Five or six years later, we seem a very long way from that..

Very well said tecmo, +k

After yesterdays results dlip is felling very frustrated with the "level" of play in the east here in 09. You make a great point that many of us have been around and thought, at one point, we were getting closer. Yet this year it seems very obvious to dlip that we as a region are just not there. dlip thinks the way you put it in your post makes perfect sense and is a respectful way to describe how many of us feel. dlip does not want to sit here and hammer the east for what good will it do? Yet, when looking in the mirror, we see Del Val, who is probably now our top team, who we already know could not hang with Wesley. Yes dlip knows Del Val has improved, but ****, so has Wesley. Let's just ****in hope the level of football grows in 10' and works it way a bit closer to the national stage.

dlippiel,

First with D 3 football we don't have the luxury of injury reports and accurate information on whose playing and even the stats are not 100% accurate. That being said, it creates a difficult environment to pick games winners. (It is also why D3 is a great take on any given day anything can happen)

Union beats Ithaca both teams at full strength early in the season, Ithaca loses to Springfield 5 starters out both defensive ends (93 & 95 DNP) vs. a rush orient team.  Merchant Marine beats Susquehanna (QB Palazzi does not play) Union losses to Muhlenberg after the game it was determined Connolly QB had a mild concussion.  Ithaca beats Alfred (93 & 95) play 8 tackles, 4 TFL and 1 sack, how do you measure the impact of the non-skill position with factors that don't show up on the stat sheet. For example the IC DE maybe drew 2 or 3 holding penalties that – 30 yards and can kill drives. That what makes this so hard to predict and why they play the games.

As for MT Union consistency, they have more depth than most D3 school I understand they have 100 on a freshman team, a JV squad and 100+ on the varsity unit. How are their academic standards vs. all the other programs? In my opinion it's not apples to apples, it's like a D1 non scholarship program trying to beat a BCS program, they don't have the same resources and guidelines.

[pumkinattack]

The problem we are all afflicted with is that we assume linear upward progression, which is just much less frequently the case than thought.  That's why everyone talks about Utica and Rochester taking a step up and competing (Rochester's been a perennial potential sleeper for the entire decade).    

UR and UC are the Houston Texans of the LL and E8...

But, UofR should be given credit for their scheduling.  I think I read that they had the 4th toughest schedule in the country (these are all driven by OOC since conference OWP will balance out ultimately).  They played Case Western, SJF, AU in their OOC. 

[maxpower]

The problem we are all afflicted with is that we assume linear upward progression, which is just much less frequently the case than thought.  That's why everyone talks about Utica and Rochester taking a step up and competing (Rochester's been a perennial potential sleeper for the entire decade).    

It's just a basic thing in college... you get people for four years. Sure, the better you do, the better your recruiting gets, but it is that much harder to build a core, and then build around that. Look at IC's QB situation.... we all thought Grastorf was the answer, but Juvan was just a little better, played til he was a senior, now this senior year is Grastorf's only shot and it's been blown.

[gordonmann]

I think most that most here know that very few teams over the past ten years could hang with Mount Union.  I understand the idea behind pointing out the sillyness of posters lamenting over a season that will inevitably end to Mount, when in the past, our years have.... ended to Mount.

With that said, I think a lot of the frustration in here boils down to the level of football being played.  Most on here have been around long enough to compare the current level of play to a good number of years.  Just off the top of my head, it's clear that teams such as Ithaca, Cortland, RPI, Hobart, Union, Fisher, Springfield, Brockport, Rowan... are down significantly compared to teams not too many years ago.

While the past and current teams may still all add up to losses to Mount, there's something to be said for quality football being played.  It's fun to watch your school have playmakers on offense and defense, have an explosive offense, a shutdown defense, an incredible wideout, a QB that can make all the throws.. and there just hasn't been too much of that this.  There's a certain level of disappointment as I believe many around here just a short time ago, including myself, thought a number of teams out of the East were just about ready to compete on the national level.  Five or six years later, we seem a very long way from that..

Well said and I respect that point of view.  

But I'd offer a couple counter points.  The teams you mentioned may be having down years but others - Alfred, Del Val, Kean, Leb Val - are not.  They are in the East and, though they may not have as many message board posters or as rich a history as some others you mention, there's plenty of good story lines there.  The MAC has a chance to have wins against champions of the Centennial (JHU), ODAC (Randolph Macon), Liberty League (Susquehanna), NJAC (Montclair or Kean) and NEFC (Curry).  So maybe for one year the power has just shifted to a different part of the region.

I do agree that there are no power teams in the East and view the playoffs as pretty wide open.  I think there is more parity within conferences that makes for more interesting seasons and lowers the likelihood of one team or two teams dominating the landscape.

I also agree that the East teams are a long way from beating the national powers, if we limit that group to Mary Hardin-Baylor, Mount Union and Whitewater.  But I think the same could be said for most teams in most regions with the exceptions of a few that have a lot of history to draw upon come recruiting time (St. John's, Linfield).

[pumkinattack]

Gordon,

  Your bringing a little sanity to the discussion, which is great, but I would suggest that the problem lies in the lack of notable wins for the best teams in the region.  Right now, DelVal looks like the best team in the region and has beaten a couple of teams of note (JHU, Kean), but did lose convincingly to #5 Wesley suggesting that the top of the East's "ceiling" this year is somewhere between #10 and #20 and after that, I'm not sure a #2 is the the top 25 or so in the country.  It's not so much that the top East team can't compete with UMHB/MUC/UWW, but I'm not sure they can compete with SJU, Linfield, OAC #2 (ONU I guess, maybe Capital), top 2 in CCIW, etc.  (that group that would be #4 - say #12) that's frustrating for me personally.   

  That doesn't mean there aren't a number of fascinating stories in the East, just that we all have to dig a little deeper and consider different goals for the teams in the region.  I have no doubt that Dew's comment was a throw away one in disgust with the fact that the two undefeated teams which held the most promise on the national landscape (other than DelVal, who had the top 5 loss) got taken out to the woodshed yesterday.  I'm still interested in what happens every week across the region and check out all the scores and box scores.  The ECAC's will be interesting this year for sure. 

[gordonmann]

Pumpkin attack:

Fair point.  From that perspective, the East may be a little down this year.

[JT]

I think most that most here know that very few teams over the past ten years could hang with Mount Union.  I understand the idea behind pointing out the sillyness of posters lamenting over a season that will inevitably end to Mount, when in the past, our years have.... ended to Mount. 

With that said, I think a lot of the frustration in here boils down to the level of football being played.  Most on here have been around long enough to compare the current level of play to a good number of years.  Just off the top of my head, it's clear that teams such as Ithaca, Cortland, RPI, Hobart, Union, Fisher, Springfield, Brockport, Rowan... are down significantly compared to teams not too many years ago. 

While the past and current teams may still all add up to losses to Mount, there's something to be said for quality football being played.  It's fun to watch your school have playmakers on offense and defense, have an explosive offense, a shutdown defense, an incredible wideout, a QB that can make all the throws.. and there just hasn't been too much of that this.  There's a certain level of disappointment as I believe many around here just a short time ago, including myself, thought a number of teams out of the East were just about ready to compete on the national level.  Five or six years later, we seem a very long way from that..

Very well said tecmo, +k

After yesterdays results dlip is felling very frustrated with the "level" of play in the east here in 09. You make a great point that many of us have been around and thought, at one point, we were getting closer. Yet this year it seems very obvious to dlip that we as a region are just not there. dlip thinks the way you put it in your post makes perfect sense and is a respectful way to describe how many of us feel. dlip does not want to sit here and hammer the east for what good will it do? Yet, when looking in the mirror, we see Del Val, who is probably now our top team, who we already know could not hang with Wesley. Yes dlip knows Del Val has improved, but ****, so has Wesley. Let's just ****in hope the level of football grows in 10' and works it way a bit closer to the national stage.

dlippiel,

First with D 3 football we don't have the luxury of injury reports and accurate information on whose playing and even the stats are not 100% accurate. That being said, it creates a difficult environment to pick games winners. (It is also why D3 is a great take on any given day anything can happen)

Union beats Ithaca both teams at full strength early in the season, Ithaca loses to Springfield 5 starters out both defensive ends (93 & 95 DNP) vs. a rush orient team.  Merchant Marine beats Susquehanna (QB Palazzi does not play) Union losses to Muhlenberg after the game it was determined Connolly QB had a mild concussion.  Ithaca beats Alfred (93 & 95) play 8 tackles, 4 TFL and 1 sack, how do you measure the impact of the non-skill position with factors that don't show up on the stat sheet. For example the IC DE maybe drew 2 or 3 holding penalties that – 30 yards and can kill drives. That what makes this so hard to predict and why they play the games.

As for MT Union consistency, they have more depth than most D3 school I understand they have 100 on a freshman team, a JV squad and 100+ on the varsity unit. How are their academic standards vs. all the other programs? In my opinion it's not apples to apples, it's like a D1 non scholarship program trying to beat a BCS program, they don't have the same resources and guidelines.

1) Roughly 20% of the men at Mount Union are football players. 

2) The average financial aid packages brings the tuition cost down under your average DIII State school in NJ.

3) Great head coach who's also the AD

4) All the modern technical bells and whistles.

Pretty much a formula for success.  No?

[rams1102]

I think most that most here know that very few teams over the past ten years could hang with Mount Union.  I understand the idea behind pointing out the sillyness of posters lamenting over a season that will inevitably end to Mount, when in the past, our years have.... ended to Mount. 

With that said, I think a lot of the frustration in here boils down to the level of football being played.  Most on here have been around long enough to compare the current level of play to a good number of years.  Just off the top of my head, it's clear that teams such as Ithaca, Cortland, RPI, Hobart, Union, Fisher, Springfield, Brockport, Rowan... are down significantly compared to teams not too many years ago. 

While the past and current teams may still all add up to losses to Mount, there's something to be said for quality football being played.  It's fun to watch your school have playmakers on offense and defense, have an explosive offense, a shutdown defense, an incredible wideout, a QB that can make all the throws.. and there just hasn't been too much of that this.  There's a certain level of disappointment as I believe many around here just a short time ago, including myself, thought a number of teams out of the East were just about ready to compete on the national level.  Five or six years later, we seem a very long way from that..

Very well said tecmo, +k

After yesterdays results dlip is felling very frustrated with the "level" of play in the east here in 09. You make a great point that many of us have been around and thought, at one point, we were getting closer. Yet this year it seems very obvious to dlip that we as a region are just not there. dlip thinks the way you put it in your post makes perfect sense and is a respectful way to describe how many of us feel. dlip does not want to sit here and hammer the east for what good will it do? Yet, when looking in the mirror, we see Del Val, who is probably now our top team, who we already know could not hang with Wesley. Yes dlip knows Del Val has improved, but ****, so has Wesley. Let's just ****in hope the level of football grows in 10' and works it way a bit closer to the national stage.

dlippiel,

First with D 3 football we don't have the luxury of injury reports and accurate information on whose playing and even the stats are not 100% accurate. That being said, it creates a difficult environment to pick games winners. (It is also why D3 is a great take on any given day anything can happen)

Union beats Ithaca both teams at full strength early in the season, Ithaca loses to Springfield 5 starters out both defensive ends (93 & 95 DNP) vs. a rush orient team.  Merchant Marine beats Susquehanna (QB Palazzi does not play) Union losses to Muhlenberg after the game it was determined Connolly QB had a mild concussion.  Ithaca beats Alfred (93 & 95) play 8 tackles, 4 TFL and 1 sack, how do you measure the impact of the non-skill position with factors that don't show up on the stat sheet. For example the IC DE maybe drew 2 or 3 holding penalties that – 30 yards and can kill drives. That what makes this so hard to predict and why they play the games.

As for MT Union consistency, they have more depth than most D3 school I understand they have 100 on a freshman team, a JV squad and 100+ on the varsity unit. How are their academic standards vs. all the other programs? In my opinion it's not apples to apples, it's like a D1 non scholarship program trying to beat a BCS program, they don't have the same resources and guidelines.

1) Roughly 20% of the men at Mount Union are football players. 

2) The average financial aid packages brings the tuition cost down under your average DIII State school in NJ.

3) Great head coach who's also the AD

4) All the modern technical bells and whistles.

Pretty much a formula for success.  No?

Well stated. +K The same goes for White-Water, MHB, Wesley and others. Open the rosters to over 100 and things may change. Rowan did very well plus Fisher, Cortland and Hobart did well, but not the staying power of Rowan. What happened to you guys this year?