East Region Playoff Discussion

[rams1102]

A few thoughts after my journey to and from Cortland.

1. Let the East Bracket to the East and see what happens this year. There are enough good teams. As stated earlier UWW and MU are in a league of their own. Can they be beaten, yes but everything must be perfect.

2. This should allow for 2 pool C bids and at the end of it there will still be some deserving teams that will be out. Move in one of the 2 big boys and then it will be down to 1. Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. A field goal could of made this a lot easier. Don't think the NCAA will change, but there is always hoping.

[theoriginalupstate]

I must start a tangent from this well-taken point.  The "problem"--from every perspective--is that the NCAA makes it clear that its emphasis is on promoting regional competition, in both schedules AND in selecting and seeding teams for the national tournament.  So yes, DelValCol faces the risk of losing to an out-of-region opponent.  However, out of region results are removed from the primary selection and seeding criteria.¹   So the "disrespect" is built in to the selection and seeding criteria published by the NCAA, which--to be fair--is consistent with the NCAA's emphasis on promoting regional competition.

¹ At least, that is, until the top four tournament seeds are chosen.  Then, as near as I can tell, all bets are off, since there are no published criteria for seeding the top four teams.

(I might be alone in the universe in commending the NCAA for promoting regional competition, and in questioning the marginal value of a national tournament that affects ~13% of teams, over 8, 9, or 10 game seasons for 100% of teams with spirited regionally competitive schedules.)

Del Valley and Wesley is considered a regional game...

[pg04]

A few thoughts after my journey to and from Cortland.

1. Let the East Bracket to the East and see what happens this year. There are enough good teams. As stated earlier UWW and MU are in a league of their own. Can they be beaten, yes but everything must be perfect.

2. This should allow for 2 pool C bids and at the end of it there will still be some deserving teams that will be out. Move in one of the 2 big boys and then it will be down to 1. Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. A field goal could of made this a lot easier. Don't think the NCAA will change, but there is always hoping.

Just because MTU is moved in doesn't mean the Eastern teams would get one less Pool C.  A Pool C from the East could be moved into the South Bracket, or the North Bracket just as easily.  The Bracket set up has no effect on who they choose for Pool C. 

[usee]

No one is penalizing the East for 2002. I'm just saying where the perception came from. Prior to that the perception was that the East was a beast. That came from the Rowan/mt union 99 game. So the 2002 perception changes when another 99 Rowan comes along I suppose.

WJ was being considered last year along w 8-2 ONU (who beat north central). NCC at 9-1 would have been a virtual lock over WJ last year.

The committee sets the field of 32 before they consider seedings and regional brackets. So mt union north vs South has no bearing over the Pool C selections.

[theoriginalupstate]

Bottom line is that the East isn't being punished, they're just evening out the brackets.

How much sense would it have to see the top 4 teams 9-1 in the east and the top 4 teams 10-0 in the North?

[redswarm81]

I must start a tangent from this well-taken point.  The "problem"--from every perspective--is that the NCAA makes it clear that its emphasis is on promoting regional competition, in both schedules AND in selecting and seeding teams for the national tournament.  So yes, DelValCol faces the risk of losing to an out-of-region opponent.  However, out of region results are removed from the primary selection and seeding criteria.¹   So the "disrespect" is built in to the selection and seeding criteria published by the NCAA, which--to be fair--is consistent with the NCAA's emphasis on promoting regional competition.

¹ At least, that is, until the top four tournament seeds are chosen.  Then, as near as I can tell, all bets are off, since there are no published criteria for seeding the top four teams.

(I might be alone in the universe in commending the NCAA for promoting regional competition, and in questioning the marginal value of a national tournament that affects ~13% of teams, over 8, 9, or 10 game seasons for 100% of teams with spirited regionally competitive schedules.)

Del Valley and Wesley is considered a regional game...

D'oheth!! Thou hast corrected me, and properly so.  Never mind some of what I said.

[usee]

The bottom line is, if you look at  the last 5 years it has been a 2 horse race. North, South, East, West, it hasn't mattered. There are 2 teams and everybody else. The rest of this is us beating our chest to say "We are 3rd best....No, WE ARE...etc".  Somebody has to beat Mt Union and/or UWW in the playoffs otherwise we are arguing over 3rd place.

[PBR...]

The only team the East's strongest teams get measured against now is MUC. So if we use that as an indicator, sure, the East is awful. But aside from UWW and Wesley, no team from any region challenges MUC. So we have to appraise the East beyond performance in the playoffs -- or grade the North, South and West using the same rationale. But one team in each region is not what defines depth.

This is the main point though, but I still don't think it is such a big deal since the only thing that really changes is that the easts best team has to face MUC in round 3 instead of round 4.

As a small tease to Keith's article this week, here's my answer to this question when he posed it to me:

3. If you have to go through Mount Union to win it all anyway, what difference does it make when you do it?

There are two reasons. First, the disrespect issue -- it penalizes the East teams that schedule strong out-of-conference opponents (like Delaware Valley when the team schedules Wesley).  Because of the severe risk DelVal took, the team now likely gets penalized with the potential of just two home playoff games if it makes it that far.  That's a complete sign of disrespect to a team that tried to give the country an exciting cross-regional game.

Second, it's a self-defeating prophecy for the East.  The way to create an East team that can actually regularly compete with the powers of the South, West and North is by allowing a team to get the practice and actual game experience deeper in the playoffs.  By placing Mount Union in the East, it shorts the potential East winner one full game since no East team will go to the Semifinals if Mount Union isn't eliminated by them or another team earlier in the process.  The extra week of practice and extra game against a quality team would provide experience and lessons that can't be matched in normal regular season play.  So, if a team tries to go out and schedule a playoff-caliber team out of conference, they likely get penalized by being knocked down the bracket if they make it into the playoffs at all.  The Committee is not providing the East with a sufficient ability to breed a powerhouse by repeatedly placing Mount Union in the East and by penalizing teams taking risks earlier in the season.

Ok.  But what risk did Del Val really take?  Isn't that the same risk Ithaca takes by scheduling Union, Lycoming or Cortland?  Or the risk Union takes by playing Springfield or Ithaca?  Ithaca, Union and Del Val know that for all intents and purposes, they have to win their league to make the playoffs.  If Del Val is really worried about getting the number 1 seed in the east, then yea, don't play Wesley and go 10-0 in the MAC.  But what would have happend if Del Val beat Wesley but lost the league to a 9-1 Albright like what happened last year?  What happens is that Del Val probably makes the playoffs because of the win against Wesley (which they almost did anyway).  So the pro of having that extra game would be to actually making the playoffs while the con would be to having one more home game in round 3?  Thats why I think the pros overweigh the cons in that situation.

As for the extra week of practice, yea that helps but that is a very minor issue in the long run in my opinion.  It might help you for the next season, but for the season at hand, teams that are playing in week 13 all have 13 weeks of practice don't they?  And you might even have an advantage against Mt. Union earlier in the playoffs because you aren't as banged up or as tired in round 1 like you might be in round 4.  Mount Union is used to playing 14-15 games, Ithaca, Union and Hobart are not.  It might give east teams an advantage in round 1 againts MUC.  (edit: I would see an advantage of playing in a stagg bowl, but I do not see that much of an advantage playing in a semifinal game)

Right now, the Committee would treat that Wesley win as a pure win.  Not a win vs. Wesley.  It doesn't look like the Committee is doing much "win differentiation" or "loss differentiation."  I'd like to see DelVal/Wesley remain because it can only make DelVal better in the longrun unless they will be penalized by losing a quality game later in the process.  Why should scheduling Wesley early hurt DelVal if Wesley is likely going to be the top South team year to year?  If DVC loses to a MAC team and loses the MAC through that (8-2), DVC is done for the season -- that DelVal/Wesley game is suddenly a death knell when combined with the Albright or Lycoming loss.  Where's the reward for scheduling?  I'd say that DVC has taken a larger risk than Ithaca and Union, etc.  It's more on the keel of the risk SJF took vs. MUC for two years.  That game was not going to benefit SJF -- it required SJF to go undefeated for the rest of the season to enter the playoffs, while everyone else could still burn a game and potentially make it.  Again -- NO INCENTIVE.

Part of the problem here is that you're seeing just one part of my argument.  Keith said he'll be posting my entire argument later in the week -- so I might sit back now and let you guys argue the points that I have included so far.  Incentivization of scheduling is a huge thing -- and that scheduling needs to break regional boundaries to make things a little more interesting (and to spread losses to the other regions instead of containing them within four quality conferences).  More later in the week.

so well put frank...scares the hell out me that we agree so much on this point      when you look at it from the entire piece of work not small individual pieces, its a huge problem imho....the more we open it up for discussion/debate hopefully some kind of change will come out of it. (of course we are dealing w/ the ncaa here so it may take 50 years for change)

[JT]

A few thoughts after my journey to and from Cortland.

1. Let the East Bracket to the East and see what happens this year. There are enough good teams. As stated earlier UWW and MU are in a league of their own. Can they be beaten, yes but everything must be perfect.

2. This should allow for 2 pool C bids and at the end of it there will still be some deserving teams that will be out. Move in one of the 2 big boys and then it will be down to 1. Ouch!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

3. A field goal could of made this a lot easier. Don't think the NCAA will change, but there is always hoping.

Just because MTU is moved in doesn't mean the Eastern teams would get one less Pool C.  A Pool C from the East could be moved into the South Bracket, or the North Bracket just as easily.  The Bracket set up has no effect on who they choose for Pool C. 

I've seen Rowan get a pool C and moved to the South... in baseball 

[JT]

Here's one more Hold 'em analogy.  It would be nice to occasionally get a better starting hand like South and the West.

[JT]

Did anyone else catch that sick TD run by Chris Johnson... Wow 

[Mr. Ypsi]

Did anyone else catch that sick TD run by Chris Johnson... Wow 

Did anyone else catch the Lions game - 17 points in under 2 minutes late in the 4th to beat the 'skins by 12?!

I didn't catch it, 'cuz the Lions have been so pathetic for so long that the game was blacked out locally!

[JT]

Did anyone else catch that sick TD run by Chris Johnson... Wow 

Did anyone else catch the Lions game - 17 points in under 2 minutes late in the 4th to beat the 'skins by 12?!

I didn't catch it, 'cuz the Lions have been so pathetic for so long that the game was blacked out locally!

Until midnight this morning we were effectively blacked out of the NFC with the Cablevision/FOX fued.  The Lions are on the right path, for a change.  The Jets better make their move now.  Belichick has like 10 #1's,  15 #2's, and 30 #3's in 2011.... slight exaggeration... he's loaded with picks.  The Gints (purposely misspelled) are also looking good.

[JT]

Watching Pats vs. Vikes and thinking, I could get away with a haircut like that if I was nailing Gisele Bundchen.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Watching Pats vs. Vikes and thinking, I could get away with a haircut like that if I was nailing Gisele Bundchen.

And until you've been on the cover of SI a dozen times, and make $20 million a year, what do you suppose your odds are?!

I assume Mrs. JT must never read these boards!