East Region Playoff Discussion

[lewdogg11]

Also, I think if we did what many people here would like to be done to "rectify" the Pool C situation, East Region teams would hardly ever be chosen for an At large. In general, the East is seen weaker and if such subjectivity is involved then it could be a problem for the east.

Well putting an NEFC team through Pool C won't help the feelings of the East's strength.  That is for sure.

[dlippiel]

My Utica arguement stands...that is just what I think.

My point above was not aimed at one specific NEFC team...just that I thought it was ridiculous that 4 x NEFC teams were ranked in the East Region Top 10...

It is absurd that 4 NEFC teams were in the East Region Top 10 and yes, Utica would almost definitely run the table in the NEFC. Listen dlip has no hate towards to NEFC and is happy for the players within the league that get exposed to the NCAA tourney. It's the way the system is set up that is disturbing. dlip doesn't care if horsecock University get's a bid from the Atlantic Ocean Starfish Conference, as long as they deserve it and have defeated enough "quality" opponents that stack up against other in region teams. This however is not the case in the NEFC like it or not. Just being a realist here not a hater.

Springfield finished 8-3 and third in the Empire 8.  They lost to a Bridgewater State team who did not win the NEFC.  I know what you guys are screaming about early-season results and how much better Springfield was at the end of the year...but still, guys, how many excuses are you going to make for teams from your own conference(s) while continually slamming the NEFC?

Union finished 6-4 and second in the Liberty League.  They lost to a Salve Regina team that lost two NEFC games, including one to an MIT team from the middle of the conference.  You wanna guarantee me that Union runs the table in the NEFC without dropping one game somewhere?  Sure, they'd go 8-2 at worst, but I'm not ready to bet my life that they're running the table.

These statements regarding the probability that both Union and Springfield would defeat both Bridgewater and Salve later in the season are not excuses, they are realistic assumptions based upon both teams improvements against "stronger" competition as the year progressed. A win is still and win and both BS and SR deserve credit for the wins but those wins are not monumental and again, were early season wins against two teams that started out very average at best and grew by leaps and bounds as the season progressed.

[ExTartanPlayer]

I hear you Kaz...and I will admit that I did not read Frank's write up...but anyone that knows anything about East Region football can look at an 8-1 NEFC record and immediately know that a 6-4 Utica team, who is probably only the 6th best team in the E8, would probably run the table in the NEFC.

Oh, come on, get off your high horse.  Your vitriol is really starting to blind you to on-field results, isn't it?  The E8, LL, and NJAC are collectively better than the NEFC and the teams at the bottom of those three conferences would KILL the teams at the bottom of the NEFC.  That doesn't mean their sixth-best team would run the table in the NEFC.
 
Springfield finished 8-3 and third in the Empire 8.  They lost to a Bridgewater State team who did not win the NEFC.  I know what you guys are screaming about early-season results and how much better Springfield was at the end of the year...but still, guys, how many excuses are you going to make for teams from your own conference(s) while continually slamming the NEFC?

Union finished 6-4 and second in the Liberty League.  They lost to a Salve Regina team that lost two NEFC games, including one to an MIT team from the middle of the conference.  You wanna guarantee me that Union runs the table in the NEFC without dropping one game somewhere?  Sure, they'd go 8-2 at worst, but I'm not ready to bet my life that they're running the table.

Montclair State finished 5-5 and effectively tied for third in the NJAC (since the Kean/Rowan game was never played, Kean finished 5-2 in conference and Montclair 5-3; since Montclair also beat Kean head-to-head, it seems fair to call that a "tie for third" of sorts).  Salve Regina also beat Montclair, so entire passage about re: Union applies here again.

Those are three wins against three different teams that finished in the top half of three different Eastern conferences, posted by two different NEFC teams, neither of whom claimed the NEFC's Pool A bid.   Still ready to guarantee that the sixth-best team in (insert other East conference here) is a lock to run the table in the NEFC?

Lest you get confused: none of this is an argument to show that the NEFC is "stronger" than the other conferences.   I'm merely pointing out that several teams who are not from the "bottom" of  the other Eastern conferences lost to some of the top NEFC teams this season, and therefore, I find it difficult to agree with the statement that teams from the bottom half of the Empire 8, LL, or NJAC would run the table in the NEFC.

You can say whatever you want...and anyone that knows me at all knows I am absolutely the farthest thing from a Utica fan...but you would be crazy to think that Utica wouldn't be at worst 9-1 with an NEFC schedule, and would probably run the table.  Remember when everyone was high on Salve (myself included) because they beat Union by 3 points with an 11 point rally in the 4th quarter?  Utica destroyed Union to the tune of 45-17.  Though I guess I am "blinded" by on field results. 

So....yeah...I think Utica if they played in the NEFC would absolutely be the cream of the crop...and immediately.

I know that Utica and other teams would go 8-2 or 9-1 in the NEFC, and I said as much in my first post, but assuming that they'd beat everyone is going against on-field results from this year where NEFC teams beat teams from the top half of other Eastern conferences (and I'll acknowledge my flub of referring to Springfield as an E8 team when they're now LL, that's my negligence).

Basically, you're selectively choosing only results that support your argument while pretending that the other ones don't count.  It's the equivalent of sticking your thumbs in your ears and singing "la-la-la" until your mom gives you what you want.  What if I said this:

Framingham State beat Salve by 12, and since Salve beat LL runner-up Union, I'll go ahead and assume Framingham would run the table in the Liberty League.

You'd say that I'm an idiot, right?  Of course, it's basically what you're doing when you assume that Utica would beat everyone in the NEFC because they beat Union by more than Salve (again: not this year's NEFC champion) did.

Let's spin the wheel again:

Utica beat Union by 28, while Salve only beat them by 3, so therefore Utica would kill everyone in the NEFC!  Huzzah for the Empire 8!  Problem solved!

But wait...Ithaca also beat Union by 3 (at home, no less, while Salve did it on the road), and Ithaca then beat Utica 40-22.  Um.  So maybe it's not a guarantee that "teams who only beat Union by 3" are a lock to lose to Utica.

Or maybe you like this one:

Bridgewater State beat Springfield on the road by 4, and Springfield beat second-place Empire 8 team Alfred by 23, so therefore Bridgewater State would beat everyone in the Empire 8!  Huzzah for the NEFC!

Again, absurd, but no different from the logic you're using to assume Utica would roll everyone in the NEFC.

If we consider only results from 2012, ignoring previous years, there is a surprising amount of data suggesting that NEFC's "best" teams are capable of competing with other Eastern conferences, and at the very least that we've moved past the "every team in the Empire 8 would win the NEFC" era.

[pg04]

I hear you Kaz...and I will admit that I did not read Frank's write up...but anyone that knows anything about East Region football can look at an 8-1 NEFC record and immediately know that a 6-4 Utica team, who is probably only the 6th best team in the E8, would probably run the table in the NEFC.

Oh, come on, get off your high horse.  Your vitriol is really starting to blind you to on-field results, isn't it?  The E8, LL, and NJAC are collectively better than the NEFC and the teams at the bottom of those three conferences would KILL the teams at the bottom of the NEFC.  That doesn't mean their sixth-best team would run the table in the NEFC.
 
Springfield finished 8-3 and third in the Empire 8.  They lost to a Bridgewater State team who did not win the NEFC.  I know what you guys are screaming about early-season results and how much better Springfield was at the end of the year...but still, guys, how many excuses are you going to make for teams from your own conference(s) while continually slamming the NEFC?

Union finished 6-4 and second in the Liberty League.  They lost to a Salve Regina team that lost two NEFC games, including one to an MIT team from the middle of the conference.  You wanna guarantee me that Union runs the table in the NEFC without dropping one game somewhere?  Sure, they'd go 8-2 at worst, but I'm not ready to bet my life that they're running the table.

Montclair State finished 5-5 and effectively tied for third in the NJAC (since the Kean/Rowan game was never played, Kean finished 5-2 in conference and Montclair 5-3; since Montclair also beat Kean head-to-head, it seems fair to call that a "tie for third" of sorts).  Salve Regina also beat Montclair, so entire passage about re: Union applies here again.

Those are three wins against three different teams that finished in the top half of three different Eastern conferences, posted by two different NEFC teams, neither of whom claimed the NEFC's Pool A bid.   Still ready to guarantee that the sixth-best team in (insert other East conference here) is a lock to run the table in the NEFC?

Lest you get confused: none of this is an argument to show that the NEFC is "stronger" than the other conferences.   I'm merely pointing out that several teams who are not from the "bottom" of  the other Eastern conferences lost to some of the top NEFC teams this season, and therefore, I find it difficult to agree with the statement that teams from the bottom half of the Empire 8, LL, or NJAC would run the table in the NEFC.

You can say whatever you want...and anyone that knows me at all knows I am absolutely the farthest thing from a Utica fan...but you would be crazy to think that Utica wouldn't be at worst 9-1 with an NEFC schedule, and would probably run the table.  Remember when everyone was high on Salve (myself included) because they beat Union by 3 points with an 11 point rally in the 4th quarter?  Utica destroyed Union to the tune of 45-17.  Though I guess I am "blinded" by on field results. 

So....yeah...I think Utica if they played in the NEFC would absolutely be the cream of the crop...and immediately.

I know that Utica and other teams would go 8-2 or 9-1 in the NEFC, and I said as much in my first post, but assuming that they'd beat everyone is going against on-field results from this year where NEFC teams beat teams from the top half of other Eastern conferences (and I'll acknowledge my flub of referring to Springfield as an E8 team when they're now LL, that's my negligence).

Basically, you're selectively choosing only results that support your argument while pretending that the other ones don't count.  It's the equivalent of sticking your thumbs in your ears and singing "la-la-la" until your mom gives you what you want.  What if I said this:

Framingham State beat Salve by 12, and since Salve beat LL runner-up Union, I'll go ahead and assume Framingham would run the table in the Liberty League.

You'd say that I'm an idiot, right?  Of course, it's basically what you're doing when you assume that Utica would beat everyone in the NEFC because they beat Union by more than Salve (again: not this year's NEFC champion) did.

Let's spin the wheel again:

Utica beat Union by 28, while Salve only beat them by 3, so therefore Utica would kill everyone in the NEFC!  Huzzah for the Empire 8!  Problem solved!

But wait...Ithaca also beat Union by 3 (at home, no less, while Salve did it on the road), and Ithaca then beat Utica 40-22.  Um.  So maybe it's not a guarantee that "teams who only beat Union by 3" are a lock to lose to Utica.

Or maybe you like this one:

Bridgewater State beat Springfield on the road by 4, and Springfield beat second-place Empire 8 team Alfred by 23, so therefore Bridgewater State would beat everyone in the Empire 8!  Huzzah for the NEFC!

Again, absurd, but no different from the logic you're using to assume Utica would roll everyone in the NEFC.

If we consider only results from 2012, ignoring previous years, there is a surprising amount of data suggesting that NEFC's "best" teams are capable of competing with other Eastern conferences, and at the very least that we've moved past the "every team in the Empire 8 would win the NEFC" era.

This. +K

[Knightstalker]

C'mon now, even NJCU would roll through the NEFC.

[Yanks 99]

You are forgetting that Utica technically tied for 3rd in the E8...but if you would have read closer, you would have seen that I said that Utica is "probably" considered only the 6th best team.

Look...I see what I see.  I am not giving the NEFC any props until they actually do something that deserves it.  Congrats...their best teams are "capable" of competing with other conferences...which is really just a nice way of saying they aren't going to get rolled every week.  I am willing to bet that if a poll is put together that asked who has the best chance of finishing undefeated playing an NEFC schedule...and Utica, Salve, Endicott, Bridgewater, and Framingham were on the list...that UC would be the overwhelming winner.

How is this for selectively choosing results...2 and 16 all time in the NCAA playoffs...losing by an average of nearly 24 points.  You can't hide from facts like that...

[dlippiel]

ETP some good points, but wouldn't anyone selectively choose game examples that support their argument? The wheel is always turning and all of us choose to stop it where it serves our thoughts best. However yanks stat is simply undeniable and better yet the argument regarding the NEFC teams' lack of ooc scheduling is the basis for all of this. If more than 2 out of 16 NEFC teams schedued other east region institutions we would hVe many more for or against stats to use. Either way all anyone wants is for these teams that are being considered for pool c bids to play outside there conferences ( like ****in everyine else) and prove that they belong. It's very simple really.

[ECoastFootball]

These statements regarding the probability that both Union and Springfield would defeat both Bridgewater and Salve later in the season are not excuses, they are realistic assumptions based upon both teams improvements against "stronger" competition as the year progressed. A win is still and win and both BS and SR deserve credit for the wins but those wins are not monumental and again, were early season wins against two teams that started out very average at best and grew by leaps and bounds as the season progressed.

Now we are getting a little ridiculous. If an NEFC team stays in region and goes 10-0 or 9-1 then they don't deserve a bid because they didn't play anyone. If they schedule a team from the E8, NJAC or LL and beat them, well that doesn't mean anything either, because if they played AGAIN, the E8, NJAC or LL team would have won, we swear, they would have. Your argument is just changing to always put down the conference.

[Yanks 99]

These statements regarding the probability that both Union and Springfield would defeat both Bridgewater and Salve later in the season are not excuses, they are realistic assumptions based upon both teams improvements against "stronger" competition as the year progressed. A win is still and win and both BS and SR deserve credit for the wins but those wins are not monumental and again, were early season wins against two teams that started out very average at best and grew by leaps and bounds as the season progressed.

Now we are getting a little ridiculous. If an NEFC team stays in region and goes 10-0 or 9-1 then they don't deserve a bid because they didn't play anyone. If they schedule a team from the E8, NJAC or LL and beat them, well that doesn't mean anything either, because if they played AGAIN, the E8, NJAC or LL team would have won, we swear, they would have. Your argument is just changing to always put down the conference.

You are missing the big point...16 teams...and 6 total non-conference game against teams not in the NEFC or ECFC.  That is what is keeping any of these teams from getting any respect...plus...that damn 2-16 NCAA record...

[dlippiel]

These statements regarding the probability that both Union and Springfield would defeat both Bridgewater and Salve later in the season are not excuses, they are realistic assumptions based upon both teams improvements against "stronger" competition as the year progressed. A win is still and win and both BS and SR deserve credit for the wins but those wins are not monumental and again, were early season wins against two teams that started out very average at best and grew by leaps and bounds as the season progressed.

Now we are getting a little ridiculous. If an NEFC team stays in region and goes 10-0 or 9-1 then they don't deserve a bid because they didn't play anyone. If they schedule a team from the E8, NJAC or LL and beat them, well that doesn't mean anything either, because if they played AGAIN, the E8, NJAC or LL team would have won, we swear, they would have. Your argument is just changing to always put down the conference.

No no dlip doesn't think his argument is changing at all. He gives credit to both teams for their respective wins over the likes of Springfield and Union. However, with those being the only two (a possible third being Salve's win over Montclair) there is not much else to look at here is there? You are clearly missing dlip's obvious point. He loves what Salve did. dlip did color for that game and credited Salve time and again for their improved scheduling. He also gave credit to Framingham for their solid game against Cortland. If the other teams from this conference did this  during the season then there would be no need for this discussion because their would be so many games to use to determine the conference's relative strength.

Are you saying we are not able to look at the three wins and make judgements from them? Did Salve defeat Salisbury, SJF, Rowan, etc etc etc? No, if they did they would immediately have more respect. Now they defeated who they needed to OOC but then...lost to a poorous MIT team. What do you want to hear from us pal? We have all given Bridgewater and Salve their due for their wins but they are only two teams from a sixteen team conference that plays no one OOC. So now this 16 team conference has arrived because two out of te 16 teams defeated an avg Union and Springfield team? Both of whom looked very different at the end of the season. Should we ignore that also?

Bottom line go out and play someone on a consistent basis or STFU when it comes to getting questioned regarding receiving a bid to the tourney over teams that play stiffer competition year in and year out.

[pg04]

The E8, LL, and NJAC teams have to agree to play NEFC teams too. It's not just a one way street, as everyone seems to be making it. Why don't these teams go out of their way to schedule the NEFC? Help the OOC and play an easier team. Seems like a slam dunk doesn't it?

[pg04]

I mean, if the NEFC teams are so easy to beat, and may be likely to end with a good record, the "better" conferences should be lining up to play them, especially if they want to complain that they don't belong in the playoffs.

[dlippiel]

The E8, LL, and NJAC teams have to agree to play NEFC teams too. It's not just a one way street, as everyone seems to be making it. Why don't these teams go out of their way to schedule the NEFC? Help the OOC and play an easier team. Seems like a slam dunk doesn't it?

Yeah, just like the SEC should bang on the door of the MAC to beg for match-ups? It doesn't work that way and shouldn't work that way. dlip would be SHOCKED if he found out that the door is being slammed on the other 14 NEFC teams by E8, NJAC, LL, and MAC schools every year when it comes to scheduling. If that is/were the case then shame on any of those schools that wouldn't play an NEFC team.

[pg04]

The E8, LL, and NJAC teams have to agree to play NEFC teams too. It's not just a one way street, as everyone seems to be making it. Why don't these teams go out of their way to schedule the NEFC? Help the OOC and play an easier team. Seems like a slam dunk doesn't it?

Yeah, just like the SEC should bang on the door of the MAC to beg for match-ups? It doesn't work that way and shouldn't work that way. dlip would be SHOCKED if he found out that the door is being slammed on the other 14 NEFC teams by E8, NJAC, LL, and MAC schools every year when it comes to scheduling. If that is/were the case then shame on any of those schools that wouldn't play an NEFC team.

This isn't division 1, and there isn't scholarship money involved -- It's like Apples and oranges. Also, SEC PAYS schools from the MAC to play them -- that certainly doesn't happen in D3.

Plus, playing the "top" NEFC teams would HELP the chances of the other conference's Pool C teams. It's not like the BCS where playing the MAC teams reduces the BCS number, it actually increases the record versus RRO and SOS.

[ExTartanPlayer]

These statements regarding the probability that both Union and Springfield would defeat both Bridgewater and Salve later in the season are not excuses, they are realistic assumptions based upon both teams improvements against "stronger" competition as the year progressed. A win is still and win and both BS and SR deserve credit for the wins but those wins are not monumental and again, were early season wins against two teams that started out very average at best and grew by leaps and bounds as the season progressed.

Now we are getting a little ridiculous. If an NEFC team stays in region and goes 10-0 or 9-1 then they don't deserve a bid because they didn't play anyone. If they schedule a team from the E8, NJAC or LL and beat them, well that doesn't mean anything either, because if they played AGAIN, the E8, NJAC or LL team would have won, we swear, they would have. Your argument is just changing to always put down the conference.

Now now, only teams from the good conferences are allowed to improve during the season. No way those NEFC teams could have gotten better too.