East Region Playoff Discussion

[Frank Rossi]

I honestly disagree slightly with HScoach's player strength assessment because he's missing two key issues that counterbalance the story.

First, the number of teams in D3 has escalated greatly, especially when looking at the New England conferences and similar circumstances across the nation.  Just like in the NBA, MLB and NHL, we've seen the pool become diluted despite population growth.  This is one reason the tournament was forced to expand from 8 teams to 16 teams to 28 teams to 32 teams over about a 20-year period.  It's also a reason we hear about how undeserving certain conferences are concerning the Pool A bids -- the top teams have a larger, deeper separation comparison against these lighter-weight teams.  You can say that there were less teams but less controversies in the 16-team field, but we still have legitimacy arguments in the Second Round today.  Thus, the improvement of player issue has not be universal by any means.

Second, back in the 1970s through 1990s, only one game person season (except for a very small stretch on ABC in the mid-'70s) was broadcast for D3 nationally -- the Stagg Bowl.  Scores and records were not centralized on a website, and the AP reporting system was suspect at best.  Players want to win, and they want to join teams that they believe are winners.  The exposure scenario that D3football.com and the Internet have provided has absolutely revolutionized the ability for exposure of who is the best of the best and who isn't.  Stated another way, the best players can much more easily identify the strongest teams to play at in the D3 level.  Put on top of that the ability to travel much more easily for recruiting purposes and matriculation purposes, and the talent can now centralize itself in the upper-tiered schools like never before.  This explains the much more defined tiering we're seeing, as the major talent is not distributing itself nearly as well as it did back in the 1970s and 1980s.  It's not to say that it's going to completely shut out new teams from rising to that level, but it suggests that the turnover will be much slower and frustrating to the casual fan because of the large chasm being the teams; upsets of major teams just aren't nearly as likely anymore (see the hype when Buffalo State beat Whitewater).

I understand that strength and conditioning improvements at the college and high school levels and population growth generally have helped build up the pool of players -- no doubt.  The speedy are speedier, the strong are stronger, and so forth.  Yet, Title IX/budgetary issues, growth of schools, ease of travel and exposure have done more to steepen the playing field in perhaps unexpected ways.  The only thing I could add to build on HScoach's argument is that there are areas of the country being recruited (and therefore untapped gold mines until recently) like Florida and Arizona (where D3 teams don't really exist and were sometimes not even heard of in recruiting circles).  The number of Florida, etc. players just isn't as large as would be needed to make that argument solid, though, across the Division.  Sure, for some teams, it matters (it takes about 7-8 strong specialist players to turn a good team into a strong playoff-caliber team in my estimation).  But it hasn't penetrated a grand majority of the Division yet in that way.

Watching Mount Union games every week might provide the false sense of assurance that D3 players are becoming bigger and better as a whole.  I'm not sold at all on this as I look at the rest of the country.  When I head to the Stagg Bowl each year, I see players who dwarf the players I normally see before and after games I announce -- since the two schools involved in Salem have been UWW and Mount Union.  Trust me, it's a skewed sample, and I'm just not sold on HScoach's argument.

[Retired Old Rat]

I agree with HSCoach.  I think the biggest difference is seen with the lineman.  I think that UMU really raised the bar, and others worked to catch up.  When St. John's played UMU in 2000 they looked huge relative to SJU.  Same thing in 2003.  I think size wise a lot of teams have moved into the UMU level.  Unfortunately, for the rest of us, UMU didn't stand still and had continued to raise the bar relative to skill levels.  MIAC teams have gotten a lot bigger.  WIAC used to be big and slow.  Now they are big and fast.  UWW lead that change, as we learned so painfully in 2005.

[pg04]

Public message to Pat Coleman
Please tell me the name of the rotten bastard who has been smiting me every day for the past few months.  This person needs a good old fashion shaming!

It was (not) me!

[HScoach]

Frank:  You obviously know the NE better than I because the only teams we see at Mount are eastern playoff teams, but I can definitely attest that in the OAC, as well as the handful of CCIW and WIAC teams we've often seen in the playoffs, the level of athletic ability has increased significantly in 20 years.   Now, there are still the Hirams and Wilmingtons that have always been physically weak, but they seem to be the outliers, not the norm.

I find it interesting that you think that some of the east teams haven't made significant progress.  That's completely counter to everything I see here in Ohio.  The HS kids here are a lot bigger/stronger than they used to be.  Back in the 90's when I started coaching, it was a complete aberration to have a HS kid that benched over 300 and squatted well.   Now there's typically a handful each year that do that and more.  There's a ton more weight & speed training that goes into the off seasons these days and a lot less multi-sport players.  Which I honestly think is a bad circumstance for the kids.  So many of them pick their sport when still in junior high or as freshman so that they can concentrate on the specific traits needed.  And unfortunately some of them end up burnt out of their body grows out of their favorite sport and now they feel left behind because the haven't played anything else in 3 years. 

[Frank Rossi]

Frank:  You obviously know the NE better than I because the only teams we see at Mount are eastern playoff teams, but I can definitely attest that in the OAC, as well as the handful of CCIW and WIAC teams we've often seen in the playoffs, the level of athletic ability has increased significantly in 20 years.   Now, there are still the Hirams and Wilmingtons that have always been physically weak, but they seem to be the outliers, not the norm.

I find it interesting that you think that some of the east teams haven't made significant progress.  That's completely counter to everything I see here in Ohio.  The HS kids here are a lot bigger/stronger than they used to be.  Back in the 90's when I started coaching, it was a complete aberration to have a HS kid that benched over 300 and squatted well.   Now there's typically a handful each year that do that and more.  There's a ton more weight & speed training that goes into the off seasons these days and a lot less multi-sport players.  Which I honestly think is a bad circumstance for the kids.  So many of them pick their sport when still in junior high or as freshman so that they can concentrate on the specific traits needed.  And unfortunately some of them end up burnt out of their body grows out of their favorite sport and now they feel left behind because the haven't played anything else in 3 years.

Remember the discussion that led us here -- Bombers, I think, pointed out that the Butterfield teams, when the clock rules allowed for more plays and clock stoppages, had half the margin of victory averages that Mount Union generally has (and I'd assume Whitewater also showed nearly the same level of strength if we look at their averages during their run).  Gordon stated astutely that something has changed.  If your assessment were completely correct (growth across the board), it doesn't explain why we're seeing THIS level of separation forming even within the Top 10, let alone the Top 25.  I didn't say the East shrunk as a whole in terms of skilled players.  Some schools have grown in that department while some haven't based especially on the growth of new programs -- and that's not isolated to the East.  However, the thing that's happened based on exposure and travel, especially, is that the rich get richer now in terms of the talent pool.  You've pretty much, at the college level, gotten to see 9 OAC opponents, 1 out-of-conference opponent and a bunch of playoff teams each season.  You're getting a very front-loaded sample in the playoffs.  Maybe the OAC teams are recruiting better talent in an attempt to dismount the Mount, but as a whole, there is a dilution of talent we are witnessing, especially as the New England schools and other fringe conference schools get a little better.

Best example I can provide is that Union (not Mount Union) was recruiting hard in Florida before most schools and before Garcon became a standout at the Mount.  In doing so, though, Union's success in the mid-2000s has drawn the attention of many East schools to do the same.  There are many duels for the same Florida players by Liberty League and other schools now because the talent pool only goes so deep, even in Florida.  The more schools competing for the players, the more diluted the pool overall.  And we know the most talented non-D1/D2 players will end up at Mount Union and St. Thomas and the such based on the exposure of the teams' success for enough years to show a commitment toward excellence on the field through balance and depth.

I don't doubt your exposure to high school players that have more strength (although, I can bench 275 when in condition and don't view myself as even close to a powerhouse and potential football player since strength alone isn't the key).  However, even FBS and FCS have grown and are accommodating more of these types of strong players.  When I started broadcasting in 1995, there were about 108 D-1A teams.  In 2012, there are 124.  We've seen some D3 programs rise to D-1AA level over time, too, while D3 itself has grown by leaps and bounds in football programs.  The growth of the sport has far outpaced the growth of the population of the player pool in the last 18 years alone -- and the most special of players are now more likely to end up at the schools with the best football reputations if that's what truly matters to them more than just bare academics.

[Pat Coleman]

Lots of D-III schools have had pipelines into Florida for some time. Actually, St. Thomas isn't one of them.

[Frank Rossi]

Lots of D-III schools have had pipelines into Florida for some time. Actually, St. Thomas isn't one of them.

Teammate of Union SO WR Kyle Reynolds from American Heritage goes there.  I believe there are 4 Floridians on their roster.  It's a long way to Minnesota from Florida.

[Pat Coleman]

Perhaps we have different definitions of the term pipeline.

[AO]

Lots of D-III schools have had pipelines into Florida for some time. Actually, St. Thomas isn't one of them.

Teammate of Union SO WR Kyle Reynolds from American Heritage goes there.  I believe there are 4 Floridians on their roster.  It's a long way to Minnesota from Florida.

St. Olaf probably has a better Florida pipeline.  The overall point about St. Thomas getting D1/D2 guys is correct.  Caruso stated on the radio last week that 75% of his players had scholarship offers.

[Frank Rossi]

Perhaps we have different definitions of the term pipeline.

Or perhaps you misread the sentence:

"And we know the most talented non-D1/D2 players will end up at Mount Union and St. Thomas and the such based on the exposure of the teams' success for enough years to show a commitment toward excellence on the field through balance and depth."

Note future tense.  Yet, even not stating St. Thomas has a "pipeline," having four players there already from Florida is not a mere coincidence, I would guess.

[Pat Coleman]

Why nitpick?

[Frank Rossi]

Why nitpick?

?kciptin yhW


That said, http://www.blogtalkradio.com/ith/2012/11/05/in-the-huddlle--liberty-league-football-talk-show (fast forward to 69:00 for a few minutes).

[hazzben]

Saying D3 has grown doesn't really touch on the broader issue. It's not just a D3 deal. College football across the board has gotten better, deeper and more competitive. And while D3 has definitely grown, I'd argue all 'small college' football has gotten better. So it's not like D3 is just growing by adding bad teams. There's been a trickle down in multiple areas. Strength and conditioning is light years ahead. It used to be the cutting edge coaches who cared about bench press and had off-season programs. No one worth their salt in the strength industry is talking about a kids 'bench press' any longer. The training and testing has gotten much better and much more sport specific. The rare HS kid/program in the 80's who was really serious about lifting simply wasn't doing the type of stuff that kids are today...things that actually show up on a field.

To name drop into the conversation. My father is friends with Mel Tjeersma. If you had to look him up, then you need to get out of the D3 bubble. Their football connection goes back a long ways. Mel knows football. He's coached champions (state and national) at multiple levels. And he knows small college football. To paraphrase a conversation they had. Since Mel's days coaching college ball in the 70's to his recent retirement in 2010 he's seen the shift in the landscape firsthand. His anecdotal take was that the quality of play has increased at every level. The kids playing D3/NAIA today were as good or better than the D2 kids when he started. Same with D2 compared with the old 1AA teams, etc. The reasons are all we've listed here. As a guy who's coached 'elite' teams and average ones for 35 years, he felt it went further than just the best teams. According to Mel, the talent increase was across the board.

Coach Johnson, who's been the HC at Bethel since '89 is confident about this as well. The talent and level of competition in the MIAC now, compared to when he started, is night and day. Some of our best, All-MIAC players would have a hard time cracking the starting lineup today. Not all of them, but plenty of them.

And I think the issue is that the pool is deepening as well. I simply disagree with the premise that as the population of the US has grown and the participation rates have grown, somehow we are now spread more thin when it comes to talent.

And most of the growth in D3 isn't from schools adding new programs, although some is. Isn't most of that growth is through shifting divisions or from NAIA to NCAA? And sure FBS has grown by a dozen or so schools. But the scholarship limits more than overcome that. Those 108 schools are given 20ish fewer scholarship now than they were. That's over 2100 kids who used to get DI/FBS scholarships who end up at a lower level. Those fringe DI players push down fringe IAA to D2 to D3. Sure, some schools have moved up. But most moving up to give us 124 schools were already playing at some scholarship level. So there aren't going from 0 scholarships to 85. Even conservatively, there are probably 1500 kids getting pushed down through the divisions into D3 that 30 years ago would never have ended up there. And I think the talent pool is better to begin with. The teams are better today. I'm convinced of it. The NFL today is better than it was in the 70's. So is College football, across the board.

IMO, the best D3 teams today are better than those of yesteryear. And the worst are better as well.

[Pat Coleman]

Saying D3 has grown doesn't really touch on the broader issue. It's not just a D3 deal. College football across the board has gotten better, deeper and more competitive. And while D3 has definitely grown, I'd argue all 'small college' football has gotten better. So it's not like D3 is just growing by adding bad teams. There's been a trickle down in multiple areas. Strength and conditioning is light years ahead. It used to be the cutting edge coaches who cared about bench press and had off-season programs. No one worth their salt in the strength industry is talking about a kids 'bench press' any longer. The training and testing has gotten much better and much more sport specific. The rare HS kid/program in the 80's who was really serious about lifting simply wasn't doing the type of stuff that kids are today...things that actually show up on a field.

To name drop into the conversation. My father is friends with Mel Tjeersma. If you had to look him up, then you need to get out of the D3 bubble. Their football connection goes back a long ways. Mel knows football. He's coached champions (state and national) at multiple levels. And he knows small college football. To paraphrase a conversation they had. Since Mel's days coaching college ball in the 70's to his recent retirement in 2010 he's seen the shift in the landscape firsthand. His anecdotal take was that the quality of play has increased at every level. The kids playing D3/NAIA today were as good or better than the D2 kids when he started. Same with D2 compared with the old 1AA teams, etc. The reasons are all we've listed here. As a guy who's coached 'elite' teams and average ones for 35 years, he felt it went further than just the best teams. According to Mel, the talent increase was across the board.

Great guy -- I write the D-II preview for USA Today's college football magazine every summer, so I've talked to him. Kinda thought he might take that program back over last fall with all that happened last offseason.

[Knightstalker]

Showing the list of champions since 1991 reinforces Lew's point.

Only if you're wearing East/South blinders. I extended back to LAX because that followed the final East title.

Then where are all of champions from the East (or South)? Apparently, it's just a crazy coincidence.

That a number of West have won Staggs speaks to the depth of the region. It's tougher to sustain Tier I when you've got that depth at the top.

In the East it seems there's always one team carrying the hopes of that region. I do have to laugh about references to "the Rowan era" in this discussion. How can you have an era without a title? Even so, Rowan absorbed one its worst Stagg defeats to the No. 7 West seed. And in all playoff games vs. the West, Rowan was outscored 149-42.

Since the last Ithaca championship Rowan is the last East region team to reach the Stagg Bowl, the year Lyco made it the MAC was still in the South Region.  I just wonder how well Rowan would have done if they were not limited to a 100 man roster.  I wonder how many more championships the WIAC would have if not limited in roster size.

I have to agree with the size of players, when I graduated HS in 1980 our HS had one 280 lump of lard lineman who almost never played except on the goal line.  The average weight of my old HS Oline in 80 was probably around 155 or 160 and we were conference champions that year.  There are now qb's and wide receivers bigger than the linemen going to D-III schools back then.

Today on ESPN on the Mike and Mike show they were talking about how kids are now getting exposed to pro style and spread offenses by 7th and 8th grade or even younger and it shows all the way up to the NFL.  20-25 years ago it was very rare when a rookie qb was a starter for an NFL team, hell Dan Marino did not become a starter until halfway through his rookie season and he and Elway were exceptions back then.  This season you have 5 rookies starting for NFL teams that are having pretty good seasons, 3 of those are having great seasons.

The main reason I brought up Rowan a few pages back is KC Keeler whether you like him or not was a great recruiter and coach.  He got the kids like Caruso is getting, the D-I and D-II kids that are offered scholarships but he could convince to come to Rowan and the transfers from the scholarship programs.  No East team has been able to do that like KC could, I do think SJF and Hobart have coaches who are getting there and could possibly get to that point but right now nobody is there.  What LK has done is unprecedented on any level of college football.  Coaches who were at the top of the polls in D-I year after year like Bear Bryant, Joe Paterno, Jimmy Johnson at Miami, Ara Parsegian (sp) etc never did what LK has done.  He is just a very special coach and UMU is fortunate to have him.