East Region Playoff Discussion

[emma17]

This has been a very interesting thread to read and I appreciate the detail you have all provided.  I confess to not having intimate knowledge of all teams and especially those from out East. 
Frank, you made a comment earlier that you assume UWW has had similar score disparities in their playoff run.  Yes, there have been some blowouts along the way,  but it was a rare occurrence UWW would win by such a significant margin in round 2 and round 3 as Mt has.  Mt's great, but it's a disservice to their team and fans as well-and it certainly doesn't look good for D3.   

Perhaps it's not so much a matter of East teams being out manned as it is the selection process of Pool C and the pairings.  If Wheaton or UW Platteville replaced Bridgewater State, isn't it more than likely there wouldn't be a 55 point victory for Mt in round 3?     

[Frank Rossi]

This has been a very interesting thread to read and I appreciate the detail you have all provided.  I confess to not having intimate knowledge of all teams and especially those from out East. 
Frank, you made a comment earlier that you assume UWW has had similar score disparities in their playoff run.  Yes, there have been some blowouts along the way,  but it was a rare occurrence UWW would win by such a significant margin in round 2 and round 3 as Mt has.  Mt's great, but it's a disservice to their team and fans as well-and it certainly doesn't look good for D3.   

Perhaps it's not so much a matter of East teams being out manned as it is the selection process of Pool C and the pairings.  If Wheaton or UW Platteville replaced Bridgewater State, isn't it more than likely there wouldn't be a 55 point victory for Mt in round 3?     

The only thing I can go on there is that if Buffalo St. beat UWW, and UWW beat UWP, and we know how Buffalo St. finished, then UWP might have lost to Widener in the same position as Bridgewater State sat in.  It's too tough to say if Widener would have won or lost vs. Wheaton, but the North undercard didn't do too well getting to the Quarterfinals.

By the way, there are currently 640 NCAA football programs, with 5 having added football this season.  From 2000-2010, 61 programs were added across divisions, while 27 teams were eliminated.  This does not include NAIA and NJCAA players and schools.  It appears  average roster sizes for the 640 schools have increased over time, as the NCAA reports that 67,887 athletes play football in NCAA institutions.  Just something to chew on based on the earlier conversation.

[repete]

Ugh, I wouldn't hang too much East/West redemption on that Buff State result. A nice win, for sure, but UWW obviously wasn't the same team it's been. It was a very early regular-season game against a team clearly in transition.  After their run, they ought to be allowed a down year.  Anyone know if there's a rematch next season?

I might have offered up Concordia-Moorhead for that Bridgewater spot, a place they would have won had they not scr---ed the pooch at Bethel.

As for that who-beat-who-beat-who goes, I'm sure AO will  share the link to that matchup generator and it would come up some doozies. I don't put too much stock in that -- or the comparative score game -- for anything but recreation. I believe someone pointed out that UST's margin vs. Hobart was bigger than every MIAC game except against the 1-9 team whose coach, a noted Bigfoot hunter, vanished during the season. We all know that Hobart is better than that (and that comparative scores are even more useless when you include playoffs and smaller rosters vs. regular season games).

[Pat Coleman]

UWW/Buff State is a home-and-home, yes.

[pg04]

This has gone back and forth so many times. I am generally on the side of the "out of regioners" posting here. I agree that you can only use the Buff State- UWW result so much to try to defend this, especially given the way UWW ended up. The Bengals played lights out on defense and I think they played the best game possible.

[HScoach]

This has been a very interesting thread to read and I appreciate the detail you have all provided.  I confess to not having intimate knowledge of all teams and especially those from out East. 
Frank, you made a comment earlier that you assume UWW has had similar score disparities in their playoff run.  Yes, there have been some blowouts along the way,  but it was a rare occurrence UWW would win by such a significant margin in round 2 and round 3 as Mt has.  Mt's great, but it's a disservice to their team and fans as well-and it certainly doesn't look good for D3.   

Perhaps it's not so much a matter of East teams being out manned as it is the selection process of Pool C and the pairings.  If Wheaton or UW Platteville replaced Bridgewater State, isn't it more than likely there wouldn't be a 55 point victory for Mt in round 3?     

One thing that I think separates Mount from Whitewater when comparing scores is the offensive style Mount typically plays.  This is probably a crappy analogy, but it's the best I can come up with on a moments notice while still on my 2nd cup of coffee. 

Whitewater reminds me of Alabama.   Great, physicall defense and a power running game.  More likely to play field position with a great punter and let their defense get the ball back in good field position.  A typical blowout looks like 31-3.

Mount reminds me of the Steve Spurrier/Urban Meyer coached teams.  The foot doesn't come off the game until they hit 50+ and they try to run a ton of plays to get more opportunities.  Every chance they get to score and they're taking it.  A typical blowout is in 56-14 range. 

Both teams won in dominating fashion.  Just using different game plans and styles.  Simply comparing scores isn't a true measure.   For instance against Widener, Mount ran their quasi-no huddle/hurry up well thru the 3rd quarter and until the game was WAY out of reach.   As a result, they had 97 offensive plays.  Change offensive game plan to something more ball control oriented with 60 offensive plays and score could have been 35-10. 

[mattvsmith]

Somewhere there is a Salve fan bitterly reviewing the Hobart-UST box scores saying to himself, "We could have beat UST if only we'd been given the playoff spot we deserved."

[emma17]

This has been a very interesting thread to read and I appreciate the detail you have all provided.  I confess to not having intimate knowledge of all teams and especially those from out East. 
Frank, you made a comment earlier that you assume UWW has had similar score disparities in their playoff run.  Yes, there have been some blowouts along the way,  but it was a rare occurrence UWW would win by such a significant margin in round 2 and round 3 as Mt has.  Mt's great, but it's a disservice to their team and fans as well-and it certainly doesn't look good for D3.   

Perhaps it's not so much a matter of East teams being out manned as it is the selection process of Pool C and the pairings.  If Wheaton or UW Platteville replaced Bridgewater State, isn't it more than likely there wouldn't be a 55 point victory for Mt in round 3?     

One thing that I think separates Mount from Whitewater when comparing scores is the offensive style Mount typically plays.  This is probably a crappy analogy, but it's the best I can come up with on a moments notice while still on my 2nd cup of coffee. 

Whitewater reminds me of Alabama.   Great, physicall defense and a power running game.  More likely to play field position with a great punter and let their defense get the ball back in good field position.  A typical blowout looks like 31-3.

Mount reminds me of the Steve Spurrier/Urban Meyer coached teams.  The foot doesn't come off the game until they hit 50+ and they try to run a ton of plays to get more opportunities.  Every chance they get to score and they're taking it.  A typical blowout is in 56-14 range. 

Both teams won in dominating fashion.  Just using different game plans and styles.  Simply comparing scores isn't a true measure.   For instance against Widener, Mount ran their quasi-no huddle/hurry up well thru the 3rd quarter and until the game was WAY out of reach.   As a result, they had 97 offensive plays.  Change offensive game plan to something more ball control oriented with 60 offensive plays and score could have been 35-10.

You must have strong coffee, your analogy is perfect.  I wacthed the recording of the SEC championship last night and thought excactly the same thing about UWW's style compared to Alabama.  That said, yes a 30-3 score can be in dominating fashion, but it's simply not the same as a 55 point blowout in the 3rd round.  I completely believe the bracketing has created serious mis-matches in talent.

For those that continue to throw the UWW v Buffalo State result around as definitive proof of something, really?  Come on now. 
The same is true for those that want to pretend a Wheaton, Platteville, Conc-Moorhead would not have been far superior to a Bridgewater State in terms of accomplishing the goal of making the playoffs more competitive-really?  Come on now. 
   

[Jonny Utah]

This has been a very interesting thread to read and I appreciate the detail you have all provided.  I confess to not having intimate knowledge of all teams and especially those from out East. 
Frank, you made a comment earlier that you assume UWW has had similar score disparities in their playoff run.  Yes, there have been some blowouts along the way,  but it was a rare occurrence UWW would win by such a significant margin in round 2 and round 3 as Mt has.  Mt's great, but it's a disservice to their team and fans as well-and it certainly doesn't look good for D3.   

Perhaps it's not so much a matter of East teams being out manned as it is the selection process of Pool C and the pairings.  If Wheaton or UW Platteville replaced Bridgewater State, isn't it more than likely there wouldn't be a 55 point victory for Mt in round 3?     

One thing that I think separates Mount from Whitewater when comparing scores is the offensive style Mount typically plays.  This is probably a crappy analogy, but it's the best I can come up with on a moments notice while still on my 2nd cup of coffee. 

Whitewater reminds me of Alabama.   Great, physicall defense and a power running game.  More likely to play field position with a great punter and let their defense get the ball back in good field position.  A typical blowout looks like 31-3.

Mount reminds me of the Steve Spurrier/Urban Meyer coached teams.  The foot doesn't come off the game until they hit 50+ and they try to run a ton of plays to get more opportunities.  Every chance they get to score and they're taking it.  A typical blowout is in 56-14 range. 

Both teams won in dominating fashion.  Just using different game plans and styles.  Simply comparing scores isn't a true measure.   For instance against Widener, Mount ran their quasi-no huddle/hurry up well thru the 3rd quarter and until the game was WAY out of reach.   As a result, they had 97 offensive plays.  Change offensive game plan to something more ball control oriented with 60 offensive plays and score could have been 35-10.

You must have strong coffee, your analogy is perfect.  I wacthed the recording of the SEC championship last night and thought excactly the same thing about UWW's style compared to Alabama.  That said, yes a 30-3 score can be in dominating fashion, but it's simply not the same as a 55 point blowout in the 3rd round.  I completely believe the bracketing has created serious mis-matches in talent.

For those that continue to throw the UWW v Buffalo State result around as definitive proof of something, really?  Come on now. 
The same is true for those that want to pretend a Wheaton, Platteville, Conc-Moorhead would not have been far superior to a Bridgewater State in terms of accomplishing the goal of making the playoffs more competitive-really?  Come on now. 
   

I think the point that some people are trying to make (I think), is that the #20 or #30 east team is better than the #20 or #30 West team.  Or maybe even the east #10 is better than the other regions #10.  I don't know, but I have some free time and will list an unofficial top teams (Tier 2) of the east (anyone not on this list would be tier 3 or 4).  If we consider MUC and St. Thomas Tier 1, here are the tier 2 teams of the east:

Hobart
Widener
Salisbury
Cortland
Rowan
Lycoming
Del Val
Alfred
SJF
Kean
Albright
Union
Springfield
RPI
Buff State
Framingham
Salve
Ithaca
Utica
Endicott
Bridgewate State
Lebenon Valley
Monclair
Brockport
Mt. Ida

[ExTartanPlayer]

This has been a very interesting thread to read and I appreciate the detail you have all provided.  I confess to not having intimate knowledge of all teams and especially those from out East. 
Frank, you made a comment earlier that you assume UWW has had similar score disparities in their playoff run.  Yes, there have been some blowouts along the way,  but it was a rare occurrence UWW would win by such a significant margin in round 2 and round 3 as Mt has.  Mt's great, but it's a disservice to their team and fans as well-and it certainly doesn't look good for D3.   

Perhaps it's not so much a matter of East teams being out manned as it is the selection process of Pool C and the pairings.  If Wheaton or UW Platteville replaced Bridgewater State, isn't it more than likely there wouldn't be a 55 point victory for Mt in round 3?     

One thing that I think separates Mount from Whitewater when comparing scores is the offensive style Mount typically plays.  This is probably a crappy analogy, but it's the best I can come up with on a moments notice while still on my 2nd cup of coffee. 

Whitewater reminds me of Alabama.   Great, physicall defense and a power running game.  More likely to play field position with a great punter and let their defense get the ball back in good field position.  A typical blowout looks like 31-3.

Mount reminds me of the Steve Spurrier/Urban Meyer coached teams.  The foot doesn't come off the game until they hit 50+ and they try to run a ton of plays to get more opportunities.  Every chance they get to score and they're taking it.  A typical blowout is in 56-14 range. 

Both teams won in dominating fashion.  Just using different game plans and styles.  Simply comparing scores isn't a true measure.   For instance against Widener, Mount ran their quasi-no huddle/hurry up well thru the 3rd quarter and until the game was WAY out of reach.   As a result, they had 97 offensive plays.  Change offensive game plan to something more ball control oriented with 60 offensive plays and score could have been 35-10.

Just wanted to second the compliment of your interesting point about how a 31-3 win can be equally dominating/demoralizing as a 56-14 win, although the margin is vastly different, because of a difference in styles.  Well said.

[pumkinattack]

This has been a very interesting thread to read and I appreciate the detail you have all provided.  I confess to not having intimate knowledge of all teams and especially those from out East. 
Frank, you made a comment earlier that you assume UWW has had similar score disparities in their playoff run.  Yes, there have been some blowouts along the way,  but it was a rare occurrence UWW would win by such a significant margin in round 2 and round 3 as Mt has.  Mt's great, but it's a disservice to their team and fans as well-and it certainly doesn't look good for D3.   

Perhaps it's not so much a matter of East teams being out manned as it is the selection process of Pool C and the pairings.  If Wheaton or UW Platteville replaced Bridgewater State, isn't it more than likely there wouldn't be a 55 point victory for Mt in round 3?     

One thing that I think separates Mount from Whitewater when comparing scores is the offensive style Mount typically plays.  This is probably a crappy analogy, but it's the best I can come up with on a moments notice while still on my 2nd cup of coffee. 

Whitewater reminds me of Alabama.   Great, physicall defense and a power running game.  More likely to play field position with a great punter and let their defense get the ball back in good field position.  A typical blowout looks like 31-3.

Mount reminds me of the Steve Spurrier/Urban Meyer coached teams.  The foot doesn't come off the game until they hit 50+ and they try to run a ton of plays to get more opportunities.  Every chance they get to score and they're taking it.  A typical blowout is in 56-14 range. 

Both teams won in dominating fashion.  Just using different game plans and styles.  Simply comparing scores isn't a true measure.   For instance against Widener, Mount ran their quasi-no huddle/hurry up well thru the 3rd quarter and until the game was WAY out of reach.   As a result, they had 97 offensive plays.  Change offensive game plan to something more ball control oriented with 60 offensive plays and score could have been 35-10.

You must have strong coffee, your analogy is perfect.  I wacthed the recording of the SEC championship last night and thought excactly the same thing about UWW's style compared to Alabama.  That said, yes a 30-3 score can be in dominating fashion, but it's simply not the same as a 55 point blowout in the 3rd round.  I completely believe the bracketing has created serious mis-matches in talent.

For those that continue to throw the UWW v Buffalo State result around as definitive proof of something, really?  Come on now. 
The same is true for those that want to pretend a Wheaton, Platteville, Conc-Moorhead would not have been far superior to a Bridgewater State in terms of accomplishing the goal of making the playoffs more competitive-really?  Come on now. 
   

I think the point that some people are trying to make (I think), is that the #20 or #30 east team is better than the #20 or #30 West team.  Or maybe even the east #10 is better than the other regions #10.  I don't know, but I have some free time and will list an unofficial top teams (Tier 2) of the east (anyone not on this list would be tier 3 or 4).  If we consider MUC and St. Thomas Tier 1, here are the tier 2 teams of the east:

Hobart
Widener
Salisbury
Cortland
Rowan
Lycoming
Del Val
Alfred
SJF
Kean
Albright
Union
Springfield
RPI
Buff State
Framingham
Salve
Ithaca
Utica
Endicott
Bridgewate State
Lebenon Valley
Monclair
Brockport
Mt. Ida

Maybe I'm thinking of Tier 2 a little differently, but I'd cut that list in half.  Thinking of tier 2 as teams that can win a game in the playoffs on the road (a playoff game can be against a good, but not great team). 

[HScoach]

I think it was Gordon Mann that originally coined the D3 tiers, and I think it's pretty accurate and pretty consistent from year to year.  There is some movement between tiers on a year-by-year basis as individually great players/classes come and go, but for the most part it takes multiple years for a team to switch tiers.  I wish I could remember his definitions as I'm too lazy to search for it.

[hazzben]

@ Pat: Mel is a great guy. For all his success he remains very approachable and down to earth. Every school he's been at has nothing but great things to say about him as a coach and person.

[repete]

Maybe some definitions would help. I haven't looked at all the teams on that East list, but I pulled up Utica. Two winning seasons (6-4) in 12 years?

Did I miss the blue sarcasm font?

[Knightstalker]

This has been a very interesting thread to read and I appreciate the detail you have all provided.  I confess to not having intimate knowledge of all teams and especially those from out East. 
Frank, you made a comment earlier that you assume UWW has had similar score disparities in their playoff run.  Yes, there have been some blowouts along the way,  but it was a rare occurrence UWW would win by such a significant margin in round 2 and round 3 as Mt has.  Mt's great, but it's a disservice to their team and fans as well-and it certainly doesn't look good for D3.   

Perhaps it's not so much a matter of East teams being out manned as it is the selection process of Pool C and the pairings.  If Wheaton or UW Platteville replaced Bridgewater State, isn't it more than likely there wouldn't be a 55 point victory for Mt in round 3?     

One thing that I think separates Mount from Whitewater when comparing scores is the offensive style Mount typically plays.  This is probably a crappy analogy, but it's the best I can come up with on a moments notice while still on my 2nd cup of coffee. 

Whitewater reminds me of Alabama.   Great, physicall defense and a power running game.  More likely to play field position with a great punter and let their defense get the ball back in good field position.  A typical blowout looks like 31-3.

Mount reminds me of the Steve Spurrier/Urban Meyer coached teams.  The foot doesn't come off the game until they hit 50+ and they try to run a ton of plays to get more opportunities.  Every chance they get to score and they're taking it.  A typical blowout is in 56-14 range. 

Both teams won in dominating fashion.  Just using different game plans and styles.  Simply comparing scores isn't a true measure.   For instance against Widener, Mount ran their quasi-no huddle/hurry up well thru the 3rd quarter and until the game was WAY out of reach.   As a result, they had 97 offensive plays.  Change offensive game plan to something more ball control oriented with 60 offensive plays and score could have been 35-10.

You must have strong coffee, your analogy is perfect.  I wacthed the recording of the SEC championship last night and thought excactly the same thing about UWW's style compared to Alabama.  That said, yes a 30-3 score can be in dominating fashion, but it's simply not the same as a 55 point blowout in the 3rd round.  I completely believe the bracketing has created serious mis-matches in talent.

For those that continue to throw the UWW v Buffalo State result around as definitive proof of something, really?  Come on now. 
The same is true for those that want to pretend a Wheaton, Platteville, Conc-Moorhead would not have been far superior to a Bridgewater State in terms of accomplishing the goal of making the playoffs more competitive-really?  Come on now. 
   

I think the point that some people are trying to make (I think), is that the #20 or #30 east team is better than the #20 or #30 West team.  Or maybe even the east #10 is better than the other regions #10.  I don't know, but I have some free time and will list an unofficial top teams (Tier 2) of the east (anyone not on this list would be tier 3 or 4).  If we consider MUC and St. Thomas Tier 1, here are the tier 2 teams of the east:

Hobart
Widener
Salisbury
Cortland
Rowan
Lycoming
Del Val
Alfred
SJF
Kean
Albright
Union
Springfield
RPI
Buff State
Framingham
Salve
Ithaca
Utica
Endicott
Bridgewate State
Lebenon Valley
Monclair
Brockport
Mt. Ida

Maybe I'm thinking of Tier 2 a little differently, but I'd cut that list in half.  Thinking of tier 2 as teams that can win a game in the playoffs on the road (a playoff game can be against a good, but not great team).

More than half:
Hobart
Widener
Salisbury
Cortland
Rowan
Del Val
SJF
And possibly:
Kean
Alfred
Union
Springfield
Montclair
Lyco