East Region Playoff Discussion

[DanPadavona]

I agree as well that I don't see a reason why MUC has to be moved to the East for the playoffs.  Any point about no undeafeted teams doesn't pass my sniff test.  So Cortland loses one game and they don't seed #1.  They lost to what is probably the second best team in the East.  If MUC is in a tough conference it's not obvious to me since they monkeystomp that conference every year (1 conference loss in 10 years!).

vttanker,  you make a very good point.  Why does MUC have to be moved East?  Why not another team?  It would seem to me that the best team in a region should stay there.  I hope this doesn't have to do with transportation costs such as a bus ride or plane ride.

Geography is the Answer.  Bing, Bing, Bing.

MTU is the closest for travel.

Exactly.  But my argument is in doing so, you deplete the North bracket.  What you need to do to make it equitable is backfill the Northern bracket with a Western power, like they previously had with UWW.  If they move the WIAC champion to the North bracket, we have a much better balance.  Mount Union is going to kill Wheaton.

[union89]

here's an interesting question if we took an all-east region all-star team, do you think they could beat Mount Union...

Supes.....I love ya......rediculas question.

Not rediculas, and the answer is yes.

I would totally agree DC.....that's why I thought the question was bad.

[union89]

I agree as well that I don't see a reason why MUC has to be moved to the East for the playoffs.  Any point about no undeafeted teams doesn't pass my sniff test.  So Cortland loses one game and they don't seed #1.  They lost to what is probably the second best team in the East.  If MUC is in a tough conference it's not obvious to me since they monkeystomp that conference every year (1 conference loss in 10 years!).

vttanker,  you make a very good point.  Why does MUC have to be moved East?  Why not another team?  It would seem to me that the best team in a region should stay there.  I hope this doesn't have to do with transportation costs such as a bus ride or plane ride.

Come on guys!  No one in the East deserved a 1 seed and Mount Union is the closest geographically.  Had Cortland or Muhlenburg won their last game of the regular season, we would not have seen Mt. Union in the East. 

Get used to it!  As long as the East doesn't produce a dominant #1 seed candidate, we will see Mt. Union or a strong 'South' team that is in the Middle Altantic Region.

True....

[JT]

If MUC is in a tough conference it's not obvious to me since they monkeystomp that conference every year (1 conference loss in 10 years!).

How long have you been following D3 football?  Mount has 4 losses since the turn of the century.  It's not because the conference is weak.

2000- ONU is #2 in the OAC, wins in the first round, loses to Mount in the second.
2002- JCU is #2 in the OAC, shipped to the East, wins every one of their road games in the playoffs, only to lose to Mount Union in the semis.
2003- BW is #2 in the OAC, wins their first round game 54-32, loses to Wheaton 16-12, Wheaton loses to Mount in the next round.
2005- Capital is #2 in the OAC, advances to the quarterfinals before losing to...you guessed it, Mount Union
2006- Capital is #2 in the OAC, advances to the quarterfinals before losing to...I'll let you figure it out
2008- Otterbein is #2 in the OAC, loses in first round

I'd say that's a pretty good track record.

Throw the John Carroll season out the window and everything else is pointless to me.  All it tells me is the North sucks, and usually there is another decent OAC team that is better than other competition, but no comparison to MUC.  I think Mount Union has swayed everyone's thoughts of how strong the North is because they are so dominant.  There are more teams in the East than anywhere, yet we always get teams shipped in because there is more parity, where as in the North, they play candy ass schedules, but the 10-0, 9-1 teams look so impressive to the committee because that is where MUC lives.

This makes so much sense.  LD is on to something here.

[superman57]

here's an interesting question if we took an all-east region all-star team, do you think they could beat Mount Union...

Supes.....I love ya......rediculas question.

Not rediculas, and the answer is yes.

I would totally agree DC.....that's why I thought the question was bad.

Ok... who would you have be the coach... Jason Boltus would be the obvious QB... what type of scheme would you want to run in order to beat MUC

[HHawks]

here's an interesting question if we took an all-east region all-star team, do you think they could beat Mount Union...

Supes.....I love ya......rediculas question.

Not rediculas, and the answer is yes.

I would totally agree DC.....that's why I thought the question was bad.

Ok... who would you have be the coach... Jason Boltus would be the obvious QB... what type of scheme would you want to run in order to beat MUC

OK I believe that Mount Union is a very talented and disciplined D3 football team. They are beatable...

[Small but Slow]

Once upon a time the road to the national championship ran through the north region.  Dayton,Witt, B-W, Augie, and then Mount, had to fight their way through the north region then coasted to the Stagg for national titles.  Times have definitely changed.  Anybody have any good theories for this change?

[Ralph Turner]

Once upon a time the road to the national championship ran through the north region.  Dayton,Witt, B-W, Augie, and then Mount, had to fight their way through the north region then coasted to the Stagg for national titles.  Times have definitely changed.  Anybody have any good theories for this change?

1)  The addition of the NWC to D3... Pac Lutheran in 1999 and Linfield in 2004.

2)  Strengthening of the programs in general in the WIAC.  I will defer to a WIAC lurker who might understand some of the nuances of the WIAC.  When did the WIAC go to 100-player roster, for one?  Has this meant greater parity in the WIAC that preps teams for the playoffs better?

3)  When did Witt move into the NCAC?  After about 5 years, does the competitive edge, or lack of it in the NCAC, "soften" the program?  EDIT--Wittenberg was a member of the OAC when they made that appearance in the Stagg.  Witt began play in the NCAC in 1989.

4)  Dayton?  Gone to D-1.

5)  Augie?  MUC is beating the CCIW, and Augie hasn't won a Stagg since current seniors were born.

[Small but Slow]

Ralph - Excellent points.  The NWC additions did strengthen the west.  Trinity, and UMHB has boosted the south, and look for Mike DuBose at Milsapps to keep building that program.  The NWC schools along with the southern schools also play in more pleasant climates which can help develop more diverse offensive attacks, but UWW and MUC playing in the last three championship games shoot a hole in that theory.  Not to discredit the east region, Rowan and Ithaca had some pretty successful runs throughout the years.

[Ralph Turner]

The UWW players attribute their success in the Stagg (elsewhere on these sites) to the game that UMHB played them in the semis in Wisconsin the week before.   

UWW 16 UMHB 7

By almost every measure the game was a draw. Whitewater had 14 first downs, Mary Hardin Baylor 11. Whitewater had 273 total yards of offense, UMH-B 269. Whitewater had the ball for 66 plays, Mary Hardin-Baylor 67. There were a total of seven penalites in the game, split 4-3 (Whitewater 4). There was only one turnover in the game, remarkable given the frigid conditions.

[HScoach]

For those that care, this discussion has spilled over to the Playoff thread in the General Football page too.

[usee]

This is fine and all, but I think you're begging the question:  "Why did the Committee put MUC back at the top of the East?"  Answer:  Because they assumed MUC would roll over the East Region competition, giving the overall #1 seed the easiest road to the Semifinals.  You can't have it both ways, Toph.  The point is valid that the East teams DID overperform at times compared to what even the Committee's expectations were.

I don't think the NCAA moved Mount east because they thought that would be the easiest road for MUC.  You're giving the NCAA way too much credit.  Without an undefeated in the East and 3 of them in the North, it makes for a pretty easy decision if you're trying to reward 10-0 teams.  If Cortland would have beaten Ithaca, they'd have been a very legit #1 seed.  And I think they'd have still have earned a trip to Alliance, it would have just been in the semi-finals.

hscoach, what I stated is pretty much a paraphrase from the Committee Chair from "In the HuddLLe" during Selection Weekend.  That's not just conjecture on my part.

Frank,

I listened to your whole interveiw with Dick Kaiser (which was well done by the way!) and I didn't hear him say anything remotely close to what you paraphrased. Can you clarify?

[usee]

I agree as well that I don't see a reason why MUC has to be moved to the East for the playoffs.  Any point about no undeafeted teams doesn't pass my sniff test.  So Cortland loses one game and they don't seed #1.  They lost to what is probably the second best team in the East.  If MUC is in a tough conference it's not obvious to me since they monkeystomp that conference every year (1 conference loss in 10 years!).

vttanker,  you make a very good point.  Why does MUC have to be moved East?  Why not another team?  It would seem to me that the best team in a region should stay there.  I hope this doesn't have to do with transportation costs such as a bus ride or plane ride.

Geography is the Answer.  Bing, Bing, Bing.

MTU is the closest for travel.

Exactly.  But my argument is in doing so, you deplete the North bracket.  What you need to do to make it equitable is backfill the Northern bracket with a Western power, like they previously had with UWW.  If they move the WIAC champion to the North bracket, we have a much better balance.  Mount Union is going to kill Wheaton.

Dan,

I get that you don't like MUC in the east region but even if Mt Union beats Wheaton, it won't be any worse than Cortland or Ithaca the past two years. I see a lot of talk trying to tear down the North but there is NO evidence the East is any better. If Wheaton loses 42-7 are you going to argue Cortland is 7 pts better than Wheaton?

Ithaca and Wagner are your 2 Stagg bowl winners since 1973. The last win being in 1991. Besides MUC the North has had 7 different Stagg Bowl champions with 12 titles. East has had 2 teams win 4 times. These two regions don't play each other much so there isn't a lot of information but it isn't right to demean North teams when the East has fared no better or worse over time.

[dlippiel]

If MUC is in a tough conference it's not obvious to me since they monkeystomp that conference every year (1 conference loss in 10 years!).

How long have you been following D3 football?  Mount has 4 losses since the turn of the century.  It's not because the conference is weak.

2000- ONU is #2 in the OAC, wins in the first round, loses to Mount in the second.
2002- JCU is #2 in the OAC, shipped to the East, wins every one of their road games in the playoffs, only to lose to Mount Union in the semis.
2003- BW is #2 in the OAC, wins their first round game 54-32, loses to Wheaton 16-12, Wheaton loses to Mount in the next round.
2005- Capital is #2 in the OAC, advances to the quarterfinals before losing to...you guessed it, Mount Union
2006- Capital is #2 in the OAC, advances to the quarterfinals before losing to...I'll let you figure it out
2008- Otterbein is #2 in the OAC, loses in first round

I'd say that's a pretty good track record.

Throw the John Carroll season out the window and everything else is pointless to me.  All it tells me is the North sucks, and usually there is another decent OAC team that is better than other competition, but no comparison to MUC.  I think Mount Union has swayed everyone's thoughts of how strong the North is because they are so dominant.  There are more teams in the East than anywhere, yet we always get teams shipped in because there is more parity, where as in the North, they play candy ass schedules, but the 10-0, 9-1 teams look so impressive to the committee because that is where MUC lives.

This makes so much sense.  LD is on to something here.

I think he is. The East gets hammered in reputation regarding the NCAA and rightfully so. We haven't had a team in the mix in a while. Many still think Rowen is still dominent here. Yet the East is full of parity and decent D3 football. I think Bart and Cortland's performance against MUC speaks to this. Even though both got beat handily both showed very good potential and both came out of the game well respected and having impressed many. Looking at Curry coming in and taking IC out at home illustrates the parity that continues to grow over here. The football is very good and comparible with any across the country. However it is about time someone steps up and makes a run into the semi's (at least). MUC just a huge hurdle for anyone to go through.

[labart96]

Not sure if this deserves it's own thread or not, but figured I'd drop it here under the "east region" heading:

First off - congrats to all the players named to All-Region teams - esp Boltus and Scalice from the East!  Congrats to Lyco's Coach Clark for a great year!

(slow, then quickly building clap, clap, clap, clap, clapclapclap!!!!!)

Now for the sour grapes:

1.  Never saw Scalice play but Hobart's SR LB Justin Hager had 42 more tackles than Scalice (134 to 92) and had comparable (3.5 vs. 7.5 tackles for loss, 4 vs 8 pass break ups).  Didn't see Scalice's stats re: INTs and FRs but Hager had 1 of each, including 2 FF and 2 blocked kicks (one of which helped Hobart win the RPI game).  Please don't misinterpret - not saying Scalice doesn't deserve the honor for DPOY - like I said I didn't see him play - solely based an argument on pure stats - but am interested hearing from IC/E8 fans to chime in as a counterpoint to my (obvious) Hobart bias.

2.  How the heck did the D3fb.com voters for the East Region completely overlook Hobart SR LB (and 3 time Co-capt) Jeff Sanders?

Sanders' stats on the year:

105 total tackles, 2.5 tfl, 1 INT, .5 sacks, 5 pass def, 3 FF, 1 FR

I am sure other guys on the first, second and third teams were deserving but Sanders really seemed to have a first team caliber year (he was a first team LL Def rep at ILB).