East Region Playoff Discussion

[DanPadavona]

I get that you don't like MUC in the east region but even if Mt Union beats Wheaton, it won't be any worse than Cortland or Ithaca the past two years. I see a lot of talk trying to tear down the North but there is NO evidence the East is any better. If Wheaton loses 42-7 are you going to argue Cortland is 7 pts better than Wheaton?

USee,

As in the Playoff Discussion thread, you are putting words in my mouth.  I did not write that the East is better than the North.  I just take offense to the assumption that the North is better than the East.

And it's not that I dislike Mount being in the East bracket.  I can live with it.  So we played them in the quarterfinals instead of the semifinals - you still have to beat them.  My argument is that because there is very little tangible difference between the North and the East, if you move Mount to the East, you had better replace them with a strong team from elsewhere in the North bracket.

I know the arguments for the North having its own bracket - that Trine won all its games, and NCC won all its games.  I personally don't see much difference between a 10-0 team and a 9-1 team that can't be explained by everything from road-home splits to luck and injuries. 

Sure, at some point you have to draw the line on the 32 teams to be selected.  But once you have your 32, use some logic in creating your brackets.  If you want each bracket to have a team in the Top 4 or Top 5 in the country, I'd think you would be very wary of NCC and extremely wary of Trine to hold up their end of the bargain. 

So you make NCC and Trine prove themselves against UWW, or UW-Stevens Point, or somebody of that caliber.  Just the way you force Curry to play on the road for years even when they are undefeated...because they haven't proven themselves yet.  Now that Curry has proven itself, not only does it host when undefeated, it even slips in with 1 loss.  If NCC beats a Mount, UWW, or UW-SP, they prove themselves too and can have their own bracket next season.

Look, if Cortland doesn't get intercepted 4 times in Ithaca's red zone then they might be undefeated too.  If Ithaca doesn't lay an absolute egg on the road at SJF, they are undefeated.  But neither team being undefeated would be a believable Top 4 team in the country this season.  I've seen them both.  They're good, maybe even great.  But not Elite 4/8 material.  I don't see why 10-0 means you get to have your own bracket.  You and I could easily pick several teams better than both, and some of those teams would have 1 loss.  We put far too much emphasis on being 10-0.

[Pat Coleman]

I don't know why you would want the committee to be wary of North Central coming into the playoffs, though. They were the champion of a strong conference and they were undefeated. That's exactly the same resume that Cortland would've had if they had beaten Ithaca.

North Central was leading Franklin when NCC's starting quarterback got hurt. Any playoff team outside of Alliance is going to struggle against top competition when that happens. He didn't leave the game for good at that time but you have to wonder what might've been. The backup went 7-for-17 with two interceptions.

[Augie6]

I get that you don't like MUC in the east region but even if Mt Union beats Wheaton, it won't be any worse than Cortland or Ithaca the past two years. I see a lot of talk trying to tear down the North but there is NO evidence the East is any better. If Wheaton loses 42-7 are you going to argue Cortland is 7 pts better than Wheaton?

So you make NCC and Trine prove themselves against UWW, or UW-Stevens Point, or somebody of that caliber.  Just the way you force Curry to play on the road for years even when they are undefeated...because they haven't proven themselves yet.  Now that Curry has proven itself, not only does it host when undefeated, it even slips in with 1 loss.  If NCC beats a Mount, UWW, or UW-SP, they prove themselves too and can have their own bracket next season.

This just doesn't make any sense.  One, saying someone is making a statement by beating UW-SP is a bit of a stretch, IMO.  Yes UW-SP beat UWW this year, but they lost to UW-River Falls (a 3-7 team) and to Wartburg, at home, in the first round of the playoffs.  But what you also seem to be saying is that the only way you deserve a #1 seed is if you have beaten MUC or UWW.  Should we just move to two brackets and automatically give these two teams the number one seed each year?  Based on your logic, until someone other than these two teams plays in the Stagg Bowl, they should always be the number #1 seed, regardless of what occurs in the regular season.

As long as MUC's and UWW's dominance over other teams in DIII continues, there will be unbalanced brackets within the playoffs.  Those brackets that don't include those two teams will have an easier time advancing deeper into the playoffs.  That doesn't mean that the other teams receiving #1 seeds are undeserving.

I would be willing to bet that if CS had beaten Ithaca and had received a #1 seed, these discussions wouldn't be happening.  As for your assertion that everyone assumes the North teams (outside of MUC) are better than the east, I don't think that's the case.  I played against several East region teams back in our mid-80's championship run (Union twice and Ithaca) and I have nothing but respect for the quality of football that is played in the East.  My issue is with your assumption that other north region teams need to beat MUC/UWW to be considered worthy of a #1 seed ahead of anyone else.

[DanPadavona]

As long as MUC's and UWW's dominance over other teams in DIII continues, there will be unbalanced brackets within the playoffs.  Those brackets that don't include those two teams will have an easier time advancing deeper into the playoffs.  That doesn't mean that the other teams receiving #1 seeds are undeserving.

No, that's not correct.  UMHB, Hardin-Simmons, and arguably Millsaps are all teams which can play with MUC and UWW on any given Saturday.  The South bracket had plenty of power.  The only bracket lacking a power team was the North.  Why is this so difficult for you to swallow?

[usee]

As long as MUC's and UWW's dominance over other teams in DIII continues, there will be unbalanced brackets within the playoffs.  Those brackets that don't include those two teams will have an easier time advancing deeper into the playoffs.  That doesn't mean that the other teams receiving #1 seeds are undeserving.

No, that's not correct.  UMHB, Hardin-Simmons, and arguably Millsaps are all teams which can play with MUC and UWW on any given Saturday.  The South bracket had plenty of power.  The only bracket lacking a power team was the North.  Why is this so difficult for you to swallow?

Because there is no proof of that. In fact it's the East that had NO UNDEFEATED team. Why is that so hard for YOU to swallow?

And when you come on here mouthing off saying "Mt Union is going to kill Wheaton" you are talking about a team and a conference you know nothing about so you lose credibility. If Wheaton loses Saturday to the best program in D3 history it won't be because you knew it was going to happen. 

North Central absolutely deserved a #1 seed and got it. get over it.

[DanPadavona]

Because there is no proof of that. In fact it's the East that had NO UNDEFEATED team. Why is that so hard for YOU to swallow?

Seriously...are you even reading my posts?  I argued in favor of Mount coming East.  If you don't bother to read my posts, then there isn't much point in responding to them.

How can you say North Central deserved a #1 seed when they lost in the second round to a team which was immediately bounced in the next round?  Are you saying North Central is on the same level of Mount Union, UMHB, and UWW?  Because they must be, if they were so deserved of their own bracket.

And when you come on here mouthing off saying "Mt Union is going to kill Wheaton" you are talking about a team and a conference you know nothing about so you lose credibility. If Wheaton loses Saturday to the best program in D3 history it won't be because you knew it was going to happen. 

North Central absolutely deserved a #1 seed and got it. get over it.

I'm "mouthing off?"  Is that the best you can come up?  I've been following D3 for 20+ years, and not just the East either.  Much like in the Playoff thread, you have turned the debate into a personal argument and brought it down to the lowest common denominator.  Thanks for adding to all of our knowledge. I'll just stay here and pretend to not know anything about the CCIW because I live in NY state, and defer to your expertise on why the East is clearly weaker than the North. 

I'm sure you make it a point to fly around the country every year to catch a few NJAC and MAC games, so that you can reign supreme in your knowledge of D3 football. 

I'm pretty sure I saw you at Cortaca wearing an "IC, U-SEE, We All C" t-shirt.

[Augie6]

As long as MUC's and UWW's dominance over other teams in DIII continues, there will be unbalanced brackets within the playoffs.  Those brackets that don't include those two teams will have an easier time advancing deeper into the playoffs.  That doesn't mean that the other teams receiving #1 seeds are undeserving.

No, that's not correct.  UMHB, Hardin-Simmons, and arguably Millsaps are all teams which can play with MUC and UWW on any given Saturday.  The South bracket had plenty of power.  The only bracket lacking a power team was the North.  Why is this so difficult for you to swallow?

Because there is no proof of that. In fact it's the East that had NO UNDEFEATED team. Why is that so hard for YOU to swallow?

And when you come on here mouthing off saying "Mt Union is going to kill Wheaton" you are talking about a team and a conference you know nothing about so you lose credibility. If Wheaton loses Saturday to the best program in D3 history it won't be because you knew it was going to happen. 

North Central absolutely deserved a #1 seed and got it. get over it.

For someone who says they have studied D3 for the past 2 decades, you sure don't seem to know much about it.  First you state in an earlier post that teams in the North need to be tested by MUC, UWW and UW-SP.  UW-SP has been in the playoffs a total of 4 times since 1986 and has a 1-3 record.  Shouldn't be mentioned in the same breath as MUC and UWW.  Then you say that Millsaps (albeit arguably) could play with MUC and UWW on any given Saturday.  Where is there any proof of that?  Your talking about a team that has made 3 playoff appearances since 1975, who was 2-7 as recently as 2005 and who lost by 15 at home to W&J in this year's playoffs who then proceeded to lose to UMHB by 56.  And you're saying that this is a team who can compete with MUC and UWW?  Maybe in your alternate universe, but not in anyone else's.  You also stated in an earlier post on the 2008 playoff thread that there was not a strong program in the South region other than UMHB and HSU.  So which is it?  Is Millsaps a power program or not?

HSU is a good program, but until they actually play and beat a UWW or MUC in the playoffs (or even UMHB), I certainly wouldn't annoit them as a D3 power anywhere near the same level as UWW or MUC.  HSU has been in the playoffs 6 times since they converted from NAIA to NCAA D3.  In that tim, they are 4-6 in the playoffs with 3 losses to UMHB and no losses to UWW or MUC.  Wheaton has been in the playoffs six times since 1995 and their record is 9-5 with all 5 losses coming to MUC.  So please tell me with some rationale thought why HSU should be considered so much better than Wheaton and is one of the power programs in D3.  UMHB is, arguably, the closest program to UWW and MUC and they have a chance to put themselves up their by winning their next two games.  However, until they actually do it, they are just like every other team in D3, trying to catch the two true power programs who have played for the title the past 3 years. 

Unless you are willing to provide some actual data and rationale to back up some of these ridiculous statements, please don't bother responding.  My guess is you won't because you can't. 

[DanPadavona]

I respect any team which wins the WIAC.  Unless UWW's and Lacrosse's programs collapsed, I'd say Stevens Point must have been a pretty good team to win that conference.  You want proof?  Well, UWW beat Mount convincingly and is the defending NCAA D3 champion...and Stevens Point finished ahead of them this year.  Is that enough?   

Hardin-Simmons played UMHB to a virtual deadlock this season. 

Regular season:  Lost 20-18 on the road to UMHB.
Playoffs:  Lost 38-35 on the road  to UMHB.

They also hold an impressive win over a strong Linfield team.

And who was the last team to beat MUC in the playoffs besides UWW?  UMHB, at Alliance no less.  So it is not just "my opinion" that UMHB can play with MUC and UWW on any given Saturday.

Millsaps is arguably the fastest rising team in D3.  If you are not aware of this, I suggest you do some reading up on the situation.  They are coached by Mike Dubose, whose resume includes 4 years as head coach of Alabama (yes, the Crimson Tide).  Since he arrived, Millsaps has gone 7-4, 8-2, and 11-1 respectively.

Millsaps laid an egg against W&J.  But they also smashed a very good Trinity TX team 56-27, and beat a strong DePauw team 55-13. 

For the record, D3Football.com ranked Millsaps #3 in the nation.

But you are right, I have no proof of any of this.

Do you spend this much time arguing against the D3Football Top 25 every week?  After all, it's not like those coaches and SID's who vote get to see all the teams across the country play.  They have no proof...just opinions. 

[Augie6]

I respect any team which wins the WIAC.  Unless UWW's and Lacrosse's programs collapsed, I'd say Stevens Point must have been a pretty good team to win that conference.  You want proof?  Well, UWW beat Mount convincingly and is the defending NCAA D3 champion...and Stevens Point finished ahead of them this year.  Is that enough?   

Hardin-Simmons played UMHB to a virtual deadlock this season. 

Regular season:  Lost 20-18 on the road to UMHB.
Playoffs:  Lost 38-35 on the road  to UMHB.

They also hold an impressive win over a strong Linfield team.

Millsaps is arguably the fastest rising team in D3.  If you are not aware of this, I suggest you do some reading up on the situation.  They are coached by Mike Dubose, whose resume includes 4 years as head coach of Alabama (yes, the Crimson Tide).  Since he arrived, Millsaps has gone 7-4, 8-2, and 11-1 respectively.

Millsaps laid an egg against W&J.  But they also smashed a very good Trinity TX team 56-27, and beat a strong DePauw team 55-13. 

For the record, D3Football.com ranked Millsaps #3 in the nation.

But you are right, I have no proof of any of this.

You really need to check yourself into a clinic.  Do you spend this much time arguing against the D3Football Top 25 every week?  After all, it's not like those coaches and SID's who vote get to see all the teams across the country play.  They have no proof...just opinions. 

You started the argument against the D3Football top 25 by stating NCC wasn't deserving of a #1 seed.  For the record, NCC was ranked #2 in the nation by D3football.com

Yes, UW-SP beat UWW this year.  They were a good team in 2008.  Does that put them on the level of MUC and UWW.  No.  Can you say upset?  They also lost to a 3-7 UW River Falls team and to Wartburg, at home, in the first round of the playoffs.  Not power program material.

I have read about Millsaps and am aware that Mike DuBose is the head coach there.  They have definitely improved and become a solid program.  The fact that they have a coach who coached at a major Division I program is great.  Does this put them at the same level as MUC or UWW.  Hardly.

HSU.  Again, no argument from me that they are a very good program.  But where is the data that supports your argument that they should be considered a power program on the same level as UWW or MUC.  The last I checked, playing good teams close doesn't win playoff games or national championships.  4-6 in the playoffs doesn't speak to a national power program. 

First you say NCC didn't deserve a number #1 seed in the North(despite being ranked #2 by D3football.com).   You justify this by what happened in the playoffs.  Then you say in one post that there are no power programs in the South outside of UMHB and HSU.  You follow that with a post that says Millsaps could play with UWW or MUC on any given Saturday and you justify that by pointing to their #3 ranking on D3football.com (while discounting what happened to them in the playoffs).  You then mention UW-SP and HSU as being power programs comparable to MUC and UWW with no evidence to back that up (a combined 5-9 record in the NCAA playoffs).  Yeah, and I'm the one who needs to check myself into a clinic.

[Frank Rossi]

Just a subtle reminder that unless it's Union89 and me going at it... Some level of respect is appreciated on these PP boards in the East.  My guess is that Augie probably lacks some knowledge of many teams in the East named something other than "Rowan" -- so it works both ways.  Sarcasm is one thing -- but trying to grandstand with what you feel is factual information is a great way to turn off the reader from your point.  Just a random thought from a moron named Frank, though, so carry on. :-)

[HScoach]

Dan,

I'm not sure I can follow you thru all of this discussion.  You dismissed the Millsaps loss to W&J as "laying an egg", but claim North Central's loss to Franklin as proof NCC wasn't worthy? 

All I'm going to say is re-read the info below:

I don't know why you would want the committee to be wary of North Central coming into the playoffs, though. They were the champion of a strong conference and they were undefeated. That's exactly the same resume that Cortland would've had if they had beaten Ithaca.

North Central was leading Franklin when NCC's starting quarterback got hurt. Any playoff team outside of Alliance is going to struggle against top competition when that happens. He didn't leave the game for good at that time but you have to wonder what might've been. The backup went 7-for-17 with two interceptions.

[DanPadavona]

In my opinion, Millsaps' body of work over an entire season is more impressive than North Central's.  Just my opinion.  You obviously don't agree with it, and I don't have a problem with it.  D3Football's poll is an opinion - of which I agree with most of the time.  But I felt they overrated NCC.  No big deal.  I don't see a reason to call people "irrational" because they don't agree with me.  Nor do I see a reason to claim others "don't know much about D3 football" because their opinions differ from mine. 

Since I stated my belief that the North and East regions were essentially equal, I've managed to lose about 1/3 of my karma in roughly 24 hours.  So I suppose I'll keep my opinions to myself on this topic, as I'm tired of arguing over who is/isn't a super power.  If people want to put NCC in the same sentence as Mary-Hardin Baylor, Mount Union, and UWW, fine. 

But I'll leave you with one question.  D3 voted NCC #2 in the nation.  But if you privately asked each person in the poll who they thought would win a neutral field game between NCC and defending national champion UWW, how do you think they would have voted?  Be careful with your answer, because the same voters placed NCC ahead of UWW.  Do polls measure who the best teams are, or who had the unblemished record?  I'd say both...but a lot of stress is put on the latter.

[skunks_sidekick]

In my opinion (and of COURSE it's not biased  ), here are the current levels in D-III football...

1.  Mount
2.  Whitwater
3.  MHB (but barely)
4.  SJU
5.  Wesley, Wheaton, SJF, Wabash, a few others
6.  All the recent "trendy" teams....Millsaps, Williamette, Linfield, etc...

IF Whitewater and Mount meet this year in the Stagg, AND Whitewater wins, then they will have a claim to the top spot with Mount.  Yes, they have made it to the Stagg the last three years, and finally won last year, but that doesn't put them on Mount's level YET.  And MHB has to prove it can get BACK to the Stagg, and finally WIN one to get up to possibly #2.  Linfield would be higher except they have laid an egg the last three years not even making the play-offs. 

Let's face it......it's Mount........and then......oh let's just go with Mount!   

[Knightstalker]

In my opinion (and of COURSE it's not biased  ), here are the current levels in D-III football...

1.  Mount
2.  Whitwater
3.  MHB (but barely)
4.  SJU
5.  Wesley, Wheaton, SJF, Wabash, a few others
6.  All the recent "trendy" teams....Millsaps, Williamette, Linfield, etc...

IF Whitewater and Mount meet this year in the Stagg, AND Whitewater wins, then they will have a claim to the top spot with Mount.  Yes, they have made it to the Stagg the last three years, and finally won last year, but that doesn't put them on Mount's level YET.  And MHB has to prove it can get BACK to the Stagg, and finally WIN one to get up to possibly #2.  Linfield would be higher except they have laid an egg the last three years not even making the play-offs. 

Let's face it......it's Mount........and then......oh let's just go with Mount!   

Actually not bad but I think you have SJU too high, they have slipped back to the pack the last few years.  They belong in the Wesley, Wheaton group.

[XREDDRAGON77]

Interesting list.  Rowan is 2 seasons removed from their last NCAA appearance, but I would imagine they would still be considered a premiere program.  Last season was a rough one, but the 8-2 season this year arguably puts them on par or ahead of some teams that got to the tourney from the East.