East Region Playoff Discussion

[PBR...]

regional rankings? don't they come out today? or did pbr mis-read something...looked on the ncaa site and nothing yet...

[AUPepBand]

regional rankings? don't they come out today? or did pbr mis-read something...looked on the ncaa site and nothing yet...

Pep heard they're coming out Wednesday. Today is Tuesday in Mayberry.

[Knightstalker]

regional rankings? don't they come out today? or did pbr mis-read something...looked on the ncaa site and nothing yet...

Pep heard they're coming out Wednesday. Today is Tuesday in Mayberry.

Tuesday yeah, but what year?  1954?

[PBR...]

regional rankings? don't they come out today? or did pbr mis-read something...looked on the ncaa site and nothing yet...

Pep heard they're coming out Wednesday. Today is Tuesday in Mayberry.

Tuesday yeah, but what year?  1954?

LOL..phew...can u tell pbr is stressed beyond belief don't even know what day it is for gods sake...2 coworkers on vaca each for 2 weeks....pbr trying to do the work of 3 and the 14 hour work day ain't cutting it...somebody light the lamp already need a drink desperately

[K-Mack]

Incorrect Francis. This was the discussion on people in the Northeast not giving a crap about football.

Was definitely trying to look at it from the perspective of maybe the recruiting is watered down with such a big FCS and D2 presence, in addition to there being a proliferation (big word!) of schools. Thought of a couple people who had coached in D3's midwest and east.

Will check that out though. Appreciated as always.

[K-Mack]

I'll be lazy Keith...without researching it, I think it is awfully hard to advance out of this division when MUC always seems to end up in the East.  Its not really rocket science.  We have leagues that beat up on each other (NJAC and E8 for example) that it is hard to find an undefeated team.  The tops of our leagues are strong, the bottoms are weak.  It is hard to get out of any league without a loss but SOS suffers because of the bottome of the leagues and few OOC games.  So a 1 loss Montclair, Cortland, Rowan, SJF, Alfred, IC in any year won't get the top seed and may not make the playoffs and MUC will be imported.  I don't know how we fix it?

I'll speak for NJAC ... with 10 teams we can't fix it unless we reduce the league to increase more quality OOC games.  Buff St. is leaving...that may help.  We will see.

its simple to fix...as pbr stated earlier...the selection committee really only looks at records...they give almost no consideration to strength of schedule/etc....so the DVC's/Montclair/SJF/Cortlands of the world need to schedule every easy cupcake they can schedule and come out 10-0 on the season. As discussed earlier on tgp/frank rossi's "in the huddle" their guest stated that if a undefeated team was in the east that MUC would not be shipped east. Forget playing good competition and interesting matchups, and making it easy for the selection committee to see who is a contender vs. pretender. Instead now you are going to have 8 teams that are 10-0 and a bunch at 9-1 vying for a the top seeds. Its a shame really the fans loose out w/ not seeing great matchups and the playoffs get a watered down product w/ massive blowouts in the first round 

I kinda think this is true and have hinted at it in previous podcasts and such.

While the AQ system allows for you to schedule tough teams early and still recover by winning your conference, it leaves you at a, um, loss as an at-large team. The committee really has an opportunity to send a message by who it takes, and while I think last year they thought they were doing the right think by taking 20th-ranked W&J over unranked St. Norbert, it was ignoring the 8-2 Ohio Northern and North Central, etc., that really hurts the process.

It's the exact opposite of what the Dick Kaiser-led committee was trying to accomplished by taking 8-2 UWEC in '07 instead of Whitworth; reward the strength of schedule.

I think now, especially in Pool B and especially as it relates to being undefeated, wins are the only thing, and it tends not to matter who they're against. The losses matter, although the committee could really send a message by elevating DV this year, even though it's supposed to be about who you beat.

[lewdogg11]

Incorrect Francis. This was the discussion on people in the Northeast not giving a crap about football.

Was definitely trying to look at it from the perspective of maybe the recruiting is watered down with such a big FCS and D2 presence, in addition to there being a proliferation (big word!) of schools. Thought of a couple people who had coached in D3's midwest and east.

Will check that out though. Appreciated as always.

I mispoke by the way.  2570-2577(not 2575)

[Frank Rossi]

Incorrect Francis. This was the discussion on people in the Northeast not giving a crap about football.

Was definitely trying to look at it from the perspective of maybe the recruiting is watered down with such a big FCS and D2 presence, in addition to there being a proliferation (big word!) of schools. Thought of a couple people who had coached in D3's midwest and east.

Will check that out though. Appreciated as always.

I mispoke by the way.  2570-2577(not 2575)

Much better Lewis.

[K-Mack]

Interesting how all are annointing MSU as NJAC champ.  Perhaps it is wishful thinking as the only hope to keep MUC out of the east.  Methiinks, however, that Cortland could spoil that party.

What happens with a three-way NJAC tie?  Contrary to JT on the NJAC board, I have heard that there is NO fresh blood clause.  That being said, nobody knows the tie-breakers.

In this scenario, NJAC has three 9-1 teams.  MY guess is MUC comes East and NJAC only gets their champ in.

I've definitely written about NJAC tiebreakers before. I have a hard time keeping each conference's straight though, it's like we re-learn them each year on an as-needed basis. Sounds like we should make an FAQ with all these in it.

Here's what I found on quick search, from '05:

NJAC: Montclair State could force a tie with a win over an injury-depleted Rowan, with Cortland State in the mix after its 39-14 win over the Red Hawks and 24-16 loss to the Profs. The first two criteria of the NJAC tiebreaker wouldn't help, and the third level is opponents opponent's winning percentage against all of Division III, and fourth is opponents opponent's winning percentage in-region. That would seem to favor the Profs, as they hold a distinct advantage in the quality of wins index, which is similar in nature, and are currently 7-0 to Cortland's 6-2 and Montclair's 5-3.

I feel like Pat mentioned something similar in the podcast, about how they use a tiebreaker criteria in the inverse order of NCAA criteria.

[K-Mack]

Incorrect Francis. This was the discussion on people in the Northeast not giving a crap about football.

Was definitely trying to look at it from the perspective of maybe the recruiting is watered down with such a big FCS and D2 presence, in addition to there being a proliferation (big word!) of schools. Thought of a couple people who had coached in D3's midwest and east.

Will check that out though. Appreciated as always.

I mispoke by the way.  2570-2577(not 2575)

Much better Lewis.

The chance of me reading that entire discussion just went way down.

[labart96]

Well, given there isn't a single Big East or northeastern school in the D1 Top 25 maybe not such a surprise then that the lower level  / DIII schools would rank as highly (or not) either....?

I think it says a lot when the eastern region's, if not all of DIII's, most academically elite conference doesn't even bother with the NCAA football playoffs.  The Liberty League, at least certain schools, have made more of a commitment to scheduling "like institutions" which shows more of a dedication to "fair competition" (i.e., playing institutions that recruit really strong students, etc.) vs. playing the "best teams available" and getting ready for the playoffs (for better or for worse).  Not to mention the largest eastern conference, the NEFC, has lots of teams with part-time coaching staffs.  Compare that to other DIII schools with in excess of 10 coaches.

I'd also add that the cost of attendance, committment to carrying DI (e.g., hockey, lacrosse, crew, sailing, squash, etc) and other programs in addition to football is a factor as well.   Not to mention the very competitive/selective admissions requirements that tend to be higher at eastern schools (with a few exceptions of course, e.g., SCIAC schools like Oxy, some small private lib arts institutions like Kenyon and Carleton, etc.). 

By way of comparison some WIAC schools cost around $10K/year and have a 10K student body vs. $50-60K pricetags and 2K student bodies.  The student body size  certainly creates an advantage for schools like UWW  - I'd compare it to a Cal State school joining the SCIAC - there'd be a huge competitive advantage for the Cal State vs. the Oxy's and Pomona's. 

The proliferation of schools, both upper division and DIII, certainly play into it - e.g., many of the "South" DIII teams are in PA. 

Could drone on and on but will cut it here.  Looking fwd to your ATN as always.

[maxpower]

Great post TGP, +k. Much better thought out than the "DIII football sucks in the northeast because no one barbecues up there anymore" that was being toted in the above-mentioned pages....

[dlippiel]

We have had many discussions here regarding some of the struggles or percieved struggles of the East. dlip tends to see both sides of the coin regarding this discussion. One: Recruting has become a problem (competition, finances, D1, FCS, DII schools, and priority lying on other D1 sports). dlip can tell you one thing if UMU had D1 hockey dlip would bet there would eventually...evenutally be a slide in that programs success. Yet on the flip side dlip also feels that the East must somehow make adjustments and simply, "get better." There are just so many factors involved, to dlip, it is not black and white.

[labart96]

mosdef dlip....

Another, if not the biggest, contributing factors are the school's dedication (or lack thereof) to the football program and coaching.

Let's take MUC (now UMU) for as an (obvious) example.  The school is obviously behind the program 110% - how else could it support 100+ player rosters and fund 15 game seasons year in and out? 

Although UMU is expensive in comparison to other OH/midwest schools, the admissions selectivity isn't that high (i.e., 80-5% of applicants get in) and I imagine some fin aid makes it competitive with DII or other schools in its area.

Then there's coaching, and Kehres is clearly one of the best in the biz.  Winning begets winning and titles (especially in the ESPN era) will lure kids from all around (e.g., Pierre Garcon, the UWW QB who transferred from Cal Lu). 

Although not a great correlation given it was 30 years ago and the fact lacrosse is a much smaller pool of kids who play it and schools who have programs, but a big reason for Hobart's DIII lax dominance in the 80's was due to winning some natty's in the late 70's and if you played lacrosse in either NY, NE or LI you could go to Hobart and win a championship vs. going to SU or Cornell and potentially riding the pine. 

Probably the same deal for OH kids not quite big or fast enough to go to OSU or OU, MofO, BGU, etc so why not attend UMU and compete for a title EVERY YEAR?

That said, per my earlier comments, I think it's pretty obvious that most eastern schools are not putting as many resources towards football as they could.  Some of this is Title IX related, other cases it's b/c of D1 or other programs (e.g., squash, sailing) to bring in a "certain profile" (i.e., full payers).

The coaching is certainly strong at many eastern schools, but without the same level of institutional, alumni and support schools from other regions are getting, I doubt you'll see an eastern national champion in football in the next 20 years - especially as more DIII schools add football across the country.

[dlippiel]

That said, per my earlier comments, I think it's pretty obvious that most eastern schools are not putting as many resources towards football as they could.  quote]

Hitting the nail right on the head TGP, right on it.