East Region Playoff Discussion

[union89]

Well, given there isn't a single Big East or northeastern school in the D1 Top 25 maybe not such a surprise then that the lower level  / DIII schools would rank as highly (or not) either....?

I think it says a lot when the eastern region's, if not all of DIII's, most academically elite conference doesn't even bother with the NCAA football playoffs.  The Liberty League, at least certain schools, have made more of a commitment to scheduling "like institutions" which shows more of a dedication to "fair competition" (i.e., playing institutions that recruit really strong students, etc.) vs. playing the "best teams available" and getting ready for the playoffs (for better or for worse).  Not to mention the largest eastern conference, the NEFC, has lots of teams with part-time coaching staffs.  Compare that to other DIII schools with in excess of 10 coaches.

I'd also add that the cost of attendance, committment to carrying DI (e.g., hockey, lacrosse, crew, sailing, squash, etc) and other programs in addition to football is a factor as well.   Not to mention the very competitive/selective admissions requirements that tend to be higher at eastern schools (with a few exceptions of course, e.g., SCIAC schools like Oxy, some small private lib arts institutions like Kenyon and Carleton, etc.). 

By way of comparison some WIAC schools cost around $10K/year and have a 10K student body vs. $50-60K pricetags and 2K student bodies.  The student body size  certainly creates an advantage for schools like UWW  - I'd compare it to a Cal State school joining the SCIAC - there'd be a huge competitive advantage for the Cal State vs. the Oxy's and Pomona's. 

The proliferation of schools, both upper division and DIII, certainly play into it - e.g., many of the "South" DIII teams are in PA. 

Could drone on and on but will cut it here.  Looking fwd to your ATN as always.

Totally disagree within the LL.  If anything, 'Bart, Union & RPI have been scheduling outside of the 'like schools' mentality in recent years.

'Bart vs. Fisher....Union vs. Ithaca....Union vs. Salisbury would have never happened a few years ago.  I wouldn't say any of RPI's OOC opponents are at all similar to them.

[labart96]

Can't speak for Union or RPI, but Fisher is definitely an exception in Hobart's case.  Adding them was necessitated due to the SUS exit. 

Hobart's regular OOC rival Dickinson (and F&M a few years back) is a "like institution" IMO. 

CMU is sort of (really a stretch given the engineering bent), but more importantly they are a very academic / prestigious school that helps Hobart expand into the Pittsburgh, PA market. 

Hobart's AD expressed the same to all the above during our interview with him on ITH about a month ago.

[theoriginalupstate]

Can't speak for Union or RPI, but Fisher is definitely an exception in Hobart's case.  Adding them was necessitated due to the SUS exit. 

So it turns out that Bart isn't a glutton for punishment by trying to field a competitive schedule but just a desperate and lonely widow...

Glad you're able to admit that, it takes a strong person to do so...

[labart96]

Can't speak for Union or RPI, but Fisher is definitely an exception in Hobart's case.  Adding them was necessitated due to the SUS exit. 

So it turns out that Bart isn't a glutton for punishment by trying to field a competitive schedule but just a desperate and lonely widow...

Glad you're able to admit that, it takes a strong person to do so...

Not my words - the Hobart AD's.

I would prefer the Statesmen schedule the best teams in the region they can, but it doesn't seem like the school is 100% dedicated to that, hence the 9 game schedule, etc.

[AUKaz00]

Can't speak for Union or RPI, but Fisher is definitely an exception in Hobart's case.  Adding them was necessitated due to the SUS exit. 

So it turns out that Bart isn't a glutton for punishment by trying to field a competitive schedule but just a desperate and lonely widow...

Glad you're able to admit that, it takes a strong person to do so...

Not my words - the Hobart AD's.

I would prefer the Statesmen schedule the best teams in the region they can, but it doesn't seem like the school is 100% dedicated to that, hence the 9 game schedule, etc.

That seems like a fair assessment.  Last year Alfred and Hobart had a shared open date and from my understanding Hobart didn't want the extra home game and remained with a 9 game schedule.

[02 Warhawk]

Well, given there isn't a single Big East or northeastern school in the D1 Top 25 maybe not such a surprise then that the lower level  / DIII schools would rank as highly (or not) either....?

I think it says a lot when the eastern region's, if not all of DIII's, most academically elite conference doesn't even bother with the NCAA football playoffs.  The Liberty League, at least certain schools, have made more of a commitment to scheduling "like institutions" which shows more of a dedication to "fair competition" (i.e., playing institutions that recruit really strong students, etc.) vs. playing the "best teams available" and getting ready for the playoffs (for better or for worse).  Not to mention the largest eastern conference, the NEFC, has lots of teams with part-time coaching staffs.  Compare that to other DIII schools with in excess of 10 coaches.

I'd also add that the cost of attendance, committment to carrying DI (e.g., hockey, lacrosse, crew, sailing, squash, etc) and other programs in addition to football is a factor as well.   Not to mention the very competitive/selective admissions requirements that tend to be higher at eastern schools (with a few exceptions of course, e.g., SCIAC schools like Oxy, some small private lib arts institutions like Kenyon and Carleton, etc.).  

By way of comparison some WIAC schools cost around $10K/year and have a 10K student body vs. $50-60K pricetags and 2K student bodies.  The student body size  certainly creates an advantage for schools like UWW  - I'd compare it to a Cal State school joining the SCIAC - there'd be a huge competitive advantage for the Cal State vs. the Oxy's and Pomona's.  

The proliferation of schools, both upper division and DIII, certainly play into it - e.g., many of the "South" DIII teams are in PA.  

Could drone on and on but will cut it here.  Looking fwd to your ATN as always.

I would agree with you that it may be easier for potential students to enroll at WIAC, b/c it is a public school, and it is cheaper than most any private schools. But in no way does the size of the school dictate an advantage for athletic programs. This isn't highschool where the student body tries out for the football team. It's college where student-athletes are recruited to attend that school before they enroll.

If the size of the school mattered in college, then schools like Notre Dame or Duke University would never have a chance of a winning tradition like they do now.

going back to recruiting, I do sympathize with the East in DIII. It must be a recruiting nightmare out there for coaches. I think 75% all of DIII football programs are nestled in the northeastern part of the country. Between that and higher tuition costs, that's probably the main reason why western teams seem to dominate the standings over the past few decades in DIII football.

good luck to everyone in the playoffs 

[clandfan]

mosdef dlip....

Another, if not the biggest, contributing factors are the school's dedication (or lack thereof) to the football program and coaching.

Let's take MUC (now UMU) for as an (obvious) example.  The school is obviously behind the program 110% - how else could it support 100+ player rosters and fund 15 game seasons year in and out? 

Although UMU is expensive in comparison to other OH/midwest schools, the admissions selectivity isn't that high (i.e., 80-5% of applicants get in) and I imagine some fin aid makes it competitive with DII or other schools in its area.

Then there's coaching, and Kehres is clearly one of the best in the biz.  Winning begets winning and titles (especially in the ESPN era) will lure kids from all around (e.g., Pierre Garcon, the UWW QB who transferred from Cal Lu). 

Although not a great correlation given it was 30 years ago and the fact lacrosse is a much smaller pool of kids who play it and schools who have programs, but a big reason for Hobart's DIII lax dominance in the 80's was due to winning some natty's in the late 70's and if you played lacrosse in either NY, NE or LI you could go to Hobart and win a championship vs. going to SU or Cornell and potentially riding the pine. 

Probably the same deal for OH kids not quite big or fast enough to go to OSU or OU, MofO, BGU, etc so why not attend UMU and compete for a title EVERY YEAR?

That said, per my earlier comments, I think it's pretty obvious that most eastern schools are not putting as many resources towards football as they could.  Some of this is Title IX related, other cases it's b/c of D1 or other programs (e.g., squash, sailing) to bring in a "certain profile" (i.e., full payers).

The coaching is certainly strong at many eastern schools, but without the same level of institutional, alumni and support schools from other regions are getting, I doubt you'll see an eastern national champion in football in the next 20 years - especially as more DIII schools add football across the country.

Bottom line is that football programs are expensive and difficult to support.  With dwindling budgets they become more difficult to support.  I'm not convinced though that support alone will fix the problem.  This seems to be a regional problem and there are programs that are supported well that under perform and programs with smaller budgets and support that probably over achieve. 
Personally, I think the problem has to do with the talent pool.  Football in parts of PA and Ohio is religion.  That's just not the case here in NY.  Sure some of your schools (usually your class D programs like Dolgeville or Weedsport or Onondaga) love their football but they are the exception and not the rule.  Some of the best athletes in our local highschools don't play football and some are just apathetic and play nothing.  I have seen many kids who would be great football players concentrate on lacrosse year round.  NY is a hotbed for D1 lacrosse.  How many NY D1 football players are there? So...you want to improve NY (east) football?; ban lacrosse.  Of course we can't do that so there in lies the rub.  Football used to be king in the east.  It just isn't anymore.

[Pat Coleman]

Interesting how all are annointing MSU as NJAC champ.  Perhaps it is wishful thinking as the only hope to keep MUC out of the east.  Methiinks, however, that Cortland could spoil that party.

What happens with a three-way NJAC tie?  Contrary to JT on the NJAC board, I have heard that there is NO fresh blood clause.  That being said, nobody knows the tie-breakers.

In this scenario, NJAC has three 9-1 teams.  MY guess is MUC comes East and NJAC only gets their champ in.

I've definitely written about NJAC tiebreakers before. I have a hard time keeping each conference's straight though, it's like we re-learn them each year on an as-needed basis. Sounds like we should make an FAQ with all these in it.

I would but that FAQ would be a pain in the rear to keep updated. I wouldn't want to be responsible for keeping up with the changes that would have to be made each year.

[Mr. Ypsi]

Interesting how all are annointing MSU as NJAC champ.  Perhaps it is wishful thinking as the only hope to keep MUC out of the east.  Methiinks, however, that Cortland could spoil that party.

What happens with a three-way NJAC tie?  Contrary to JT on the NJAC board, I have heard that there is NO fresh blood clause.  That being said, nobody knows the tie-breakers.

In this scenario, NJAC has three 9-1 teams.  MY guess is MUC comes East and NJAC only gets their champ in.

I've definitely written about NJAC tiebreakers before. I have a hard time keeping each conference's straight though, it's like we re-learn them each year on an as-needed basis. Sounds like we should make an FAQ with all these in it.

I would but that FAQ would be a pain in the rear to keep updated. I wouldn't want to be responsible for keeping up with the changes that would have to be made each year.

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but it doesn't seem like it would be a major problem.  Put in the tie-break rules with an 'as of' date (warning the reader to beware if possibly out-dated).  Surely almost every conference has an SID (or poster) who would alert you if the rules are changed?

[Bombers798891]

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but it doesn't seem like it would be a major problem.  Put in the tie-break rules with an 'as of' date (warning the reader to beware if possibly out-dated).  Surely almost every conference has an SID (or poster) who would alert you if the rules are changed?

Not to be an indictment of SID's/AD's, but as someone who has attempted to compile things like this from dozens of places, trust me, it's harder than it looks to get everyone on board...

[labart96]

it's 5 o'clock - anybody know where the ncaa regional rankings are....

[Pat Coleman]

On our front page.

http://d3blogs.com/d3football/2010/10/27/first-2010-regional-rankings/

Posted to Twitter at 4:53. Facebook immediately thereafter.

[AUPepBand]

it's 5 o'clock - anybody know where the ncaa regional rankings are....

Ask and ye shall receive.....front page! Good timing, PC!

[Mr. Ypsi]

Maybe I'm overlooking something, but it doesn't seem like it would be a major problem.  Put in the tie-break rules with an 'as of' date (warning the reader to beware if possibly out-dated).  Surely almost every conference has an SID (or poster) who would alert you if the rules are changed?

Not to be an indictment of SID's/AD's, but as someone who has attempted to compile things like this from dozens of places, trust me, it's harder than it looks to get everyone on board...

Granted, but we are talking conference rules.  Surely almost all conferences have tie-break rules listed, so after the initial compilation all you need is someone (SID, AD, poster) to alert you to changes.  And if NO one does, what the heck - no one who cares will ever see the out-dated rule anyway!

[theoriginalupstate]

Can't speak for Union or RPI, but Fisher is definitely an exception in Hobart's case.  Adding them was necessitated due to the SUS exit. 

So it turns out that Bart isn't a glutton for punishment by trying to field a competitive schedule but just a desperate and lonely widow...

Glad you're able to admit that, it takes a strong person to do so...

Not my words - the Hobart AD's.

I would prefer the Statesmen schedule the best teams in the region they can, but it doesn't seem like the school is 100% dedicated to that, hence the 9 game schedule, etc.

I wasn't being serious about the whole "widow" thing...