East Region Playoff Discussion

[PBR...]

I hate to waste post #3,000 on the Regional Rankings, but give me a break -- MUC at #3 tells me how much is wrong with the whole process.  The SoS numbers are a joke now, officially.

thank you...pbr was getting tired of banging what seemed like the lone drum for the last couple of years...agreed the whole process needs a MAJOR revamp...complete watered down product....

dlip just stopped even looking at them 

Even though the Regional Rankings may be flawed, you can count on the Selection Committee ignoring them altogether if they so desire.

Case in point, 2005: Regional rankings had, among others, in order St. John Fisher, then Alfred, with Wilkes behind Alfred. In Week 11 that year, Alfred beat St. John Fisher 13-7 to finish 8-2, same as Wilkes, who beat an (unranked) Kings 36-13. Yet Wilkes was selected over Alfred and the Colonels went on to suffer a 42-3 loss at Rowan.

Rankings mean little or nothing to Pep anymore.

pbr just keeps wandering how long its going to take for all the coaches/a.d.'s to wise up to the "way things are done..." and schedule nothing but cupcakes and walkovers to increase their chances to make the playoffs since nothing but records matter.  Its good to play someone like Wesley this year if your DVC and the coach is confident you can run the table in your league even if you lose to a top team. But if your a coach and not sure why take the chance...play the cupcakes and pump that record up to 10-0 on weak sisters (o.o.c. games) and run the table in your league or still have a chance if you lose 1 game in your league. Soon d3 will be a bunch of teams 10-0/9-1 and having played no one and no one has an idea of who is a contender/pretender....alas here we thought d3 might be different so they had a playoff to determine a national champion...now its a "well we think they are the best team but we're not so sure..."

[dlippiel]

I hate to waste post #3,000 on the Regional Rankings, but give me a break -- MUC at #3 tells me how much is wrong with the whole process.  The SoS numbers are a joke now, officially.

thank you...pbr was getting tired of banging what seemed like the lone drum for the last couple of years...agreed the whole process needs a MAJOR revamp...complete watered down product....

dlip just stopped even looking at them 

Even though the Regional Rankings may be flawed, you can count on the Selection Committee ignoring them altogether if they so desire.

Case in point, 2005: Regional rankings had, among others, in order St. John Fisher, then Alfred, with Wilkes behind Alfred. In Week 11 that year, Alfred beat St. John Fisher 13-7 to finish 8-2, same as Wilkes, who beat an (unranked) Kings 36-13. Yet Wilkes was selected over Alfred and the Colonels went on to suffer a 42-3 loss at Rowan.

Rankings mean little or nothing to Pep anymore.

pbr just keeps wandering how long its going to take for all the coaches/a.d.'s to wise up to the "way things are done..." and schedule nothing but cupcakes and walkovers to increase their chances to make the playoffs since nothing but records matter.  Its good to play someone like Wesley this year if your DVC and the coach is confident you can run the table in your league even if you lose to a top team. But if your a coach and not sure why take the chance...play the cupcakes and pump that record up to 10-0 on weak sisters (o.o.c. games) and run the table in your league or still have a chance if you lose 1 game in your league. Soon d3 will be a bunch of teams 10-0/9-1 and having played no one and no one has an idea of who is a contender/pretender....alas here we thought d3 might be different so they had a playoff to determine a national champion...now its a "well we think they are the best team but we're not so sure..."

Honestly dlip thinks this is like a look in the mirror pride type thing. Many coaches want to schedule cupcakes, they know it will only help there chances to get into the NCAA's yet they also have pride and want to build a program based upon excellence. IDHO this must come from gaining respect in the D3 world by playing the best D3 has to offer. Coaches may be pigeonholed when it comes to this. dlip thinks they know but they are to afraid to pull the trigger. Plus, if you start to lose to those teams your ****ed.

Example: This year Union is struggling big time...BUT they can say they have lost to the likes of IC at Butterfield opening week (regardless of how good IC is or is not it's the continued perception of them that counts), and they have lost to Salisbury (another team with a very solid reputation) and they still have to go out to Springfield. To dlip, this is always the more respected route to go and one that will hopefully lead to good recruits and rivalries at the D3 level.

[PBR...]

I hate to waste post #3,000 on the Regional Rankings, but give me a break -- MUC at #3 tells me how much is wrong with the whole process.  The SoS numbers are a joke now, officially.

thank you...pbr was getting tired of banging what seemed like the lone drum for the last couple of years...agreed the whole process needs a MAJOR revamp...complete watered down product....

dlip just stopped even looking at them 

Even though the Regional Rankings may be flawed, you can count on the Selection Committee ignoring them altogether if they so desire.

Case in point, 2005: Regional rankings had, among others, in order St. John Fisher, then Alfred, with Wilkes behind Alfred. In Week 11 that year, Alfred beat St. John Fisher 13-7 to finish 8-2, same as Wilkes, who beat an (unranked) Kings 36-13. Yet Wilkes was selected over Alfred and the Colonels went on to suffer a 42-3 loss at Rowan.

Rankings mean little or nothing to Pep anymore.

pbr just keeps wandering how long its going to take for all the coaches/a.d.'s to wise up to the "way things are done..." and schedule nothing but cupcakes and walkovers to increase their chances to make the playoffs since nothing but records matter.  Its good to play someone like Wesley this year if your DVC and the coach is confident you can run the table in your league even if you lose to a top team. But if your a coach and not sure why take the chance...play the cupcakes and pump that record up to 10-0 on weak sisters (o.o.c. games) and run the table in your league or still have a chance if you lose 1 game in your league. Soon d3 will be a bunch of teams 10-0/9-1 and having played no one and no one has an idea of who is a contender/pretender....alas here we thought d3 might be different so they had a playoff to determine a national champion...now its a "well we think they are the best team but we're not so sure..."

Honestly dlip thinks this is like a look in the mirror pride type thing. Many coaches want to schedule cupcakes, they know it will only help there chances to get into the NCAA's yet they also have pride and want to build a program based upon excellence. IDHO this must come from gaining respect in the D3 world by playing the best D3 has to offer. Coaches may be pigeonholed when it comes to this. dlip thinks they know but they are to afraid to pull the trigger. Plus, if you start to lose to those teams your ****ed.

Example: This year Union is struggling big time...BUT they can say they have lost to the likes of IC at Butterfield opening week (regardless of how good IC is or is not it's the continued perception of them that counts), and they have lost to Salisbury (another team with a very solid reputation) and they still have to go out to Springfield. To dlip, this is always the more respected route to go and one that will hopefully lead to good recruits and rivalries at the D3 level.

good points dlip...could also make the point of if your a coach and lose a game to a tough opponent o.o.c. yet other teams in your conference play cupcakes and make the playoffs for several years in a row it makes it much easier to recruit and kids are going to look at who is playing in the playoffs or should i go to a place where they are done at the end of the season w/ no playoffs? (albeit schools being close academically/financially/liking coaching staff) it could easily tip the boat to the playoff schools favor....i.e. MUC go there w/ a chance for a national championship or go to school B and get a pat on the back at the end of the season

[Bombers798891]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

[PBR...]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

[Jonny Utah]

And in reality if you lose 2 games during the regular season, you might not belong in the playoffs anyway.  Your goal at some point should be to win a national championship.  If Ithaca loses to Lycoming, SJF they probably won't have a chance at winning a national championship.  SJF or Alfred would deserve that chance.

DVC may have lost to Wesley, but they are probably going to beat everyone else.  Even if they lost one MAC game, the other MAC team would have to only have one loss in order to win the MAC.  That isn't going to happen, so DVC should have a good shot at going far.

I've always felt these things work themselves out 99% of the time.

[JT]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

The NCAA has said the past that their goal was not to select the best teams and put them in the playoffs.  I would imagine that has not changed.

[Bombers798891]

And in reality if you lose 2 games during the regular season, you might not belong in the playoffs anyway.  Your goal at some point should be to win a national championship.  If Ithaca loses to Lycoming, SJF they probably won't have a chance at winning a national championship.  SJF or Alfred would deserve that chance.

DVC may have lost to Wesley, but they are probably going to beat everyone else.  Even if they lost one MAC game, the other MAC team would have to only have one loss in order to win the MAC.  That isn't going to happen, so DVC should have a good shot at going far.

I've always felt these things work themselves out 99% of the time.

I half-agree with the sentiment, but let's face it: Even before the MUC/Whitewater stranglehold on the championships, how many teams were realistic contenders anyway? For some schools, the playoffs may be the goal. I'm sure, once you cut through all the coach-speak, most coaches are realistic regarding national championships. That's not to say a once down program can't rise up like a Fisher or even Whitewater, but with over 200 teams, most programs aren't ever going to compete on that level. Heck, half the teams that make the playoffs aren't considered anything more than fodder for the Mount Union, Wesley, Whitewater's, Hardin-Baylor's of the world. So for a lot of programs, a playoff berth is that big of a deal.

Sure, us Fisher and IC fans can/could talk about the national contender thing, and Alfred could be on its way. Springfield's had a couple of years where they were really legit. But we're the minority. For a lot of schools, a title isn't a realistic goal, so getting unjustly--in their eyes--left out of the playoffs is a big deal.

[PBR...]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

The NCAA has said the past that their goal was not to select the best teams and put them in the playoffs.  I would imagine that has not changed.

i know!!! that is why its time for the winds of change to blow! its not a true national champion right now.  but people are all around are really starting to question the way the rankings and selections are done now. Its time for the ncaa to listen to everyone and implement changes, otherwise its going to turn into more of a mythical national championship than it is already

[Jonny Utah]

And in reality if you lose 2 games during the regular season, you might not belong in the playoffs anyway.  Your goal at some point should be to win a national championship.  If Ithaca loses to Lycoming, SJF they probably won't have a chance at winning a national championship.  SJF or Alfred would deserve that chance.

DVC may have lost to Wesley, but they are probably going to beat everyone else.  Even if they lost one MAC game, the other MAC team would have to only have one loss in order to win the MAC.  That isn't going to happen, so DVC should have a good shot at going far.

I've always felt these things work themselves out 99% of the time.

I half-agree with the sentiment, but let's face it: Even before the MUC/Whitewater stranglehold on the championships, how many teams were realistic contenders anyway? For some schools, the playoffs may be the goal. I'm sure, once you cut through all the coach-speak, most coaches are realistic regarding national championships. That's not to say a once down program can't rise up like a Fisher or even Whitewater, but with over 200 teams, most programs aren't ever going to compete on that level. Heck, half the teams that make the playoffs aren't considered anything more than fodder for the Mount Union, Wesley, Whitewater's, Hardin-Baylor's of the world. So for a lot of programs, a playoff berth is that big of a deal.

Sure, us Fisher and IC fans can/could talk about the national contender thing, and Alfred could be on its way. Springfield's had a couple of years where they were really legit. But we're the minority. For a lot of schools, a title isn't a realistic goal, so getting unjustly--in their eyes--left out of the playoffs is a big deal.

Right.  That's why I said at some point your goal should be to win a national championship or I should have said compete for one.  SUNY Maritime and Mt. Ida should have the goal of making the playoffs and pulling of a win so they can compete in the future. 

My main point is that the regular season should mean something and that you can figure out a lot of things along the way.

[Bombers798891]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

The NCAA has said the past that their goal was not to select the best teams and put them in the playoffs.  I would imagine that has not changed.

i know!!! that is why its time for the winds of change to blow! its not a true national champion right now.  but people are all around are really starting to question the way the rankings and selections are done now. Its time for the ncaa to listen to everyone and implement changes, otherwise its going to turn into more of a mythical national championship than it is already

But even if we eliminate those inconsistencies, we're still going to get teams like St. Lawrence in the tournament. Is that any different? What team in the E8 doesn't deserve it over them? As long as there are AQ's, you'll never get the "best" 32 teams in the tournament. There's probably no easy way to look this up, but Pat might know how many times we've seen a 3 or more loss AQ team make the playoffs over the past 10 years or so.

That doesn't mean we can't strive to make the 32 teams as close to the best as we can. It just means you shouldn't hold your breath looking for that.

It's impossible to come up with a fail-proof way of evaluating 200+ teams and identifying the 32 best. Any system will have flaws in it.

It may not get the best 32 in, however, I don't think the system we have doesn't identify the "true" national champion. The second is possible without the first. As Podunk said, exactly who's being left out who's going to beat Whitewater or MUC anyway? You'd be hard pressed to argue that any team being left out was going to affect the national title race.

[Hambone48]

The NCAA hoops tournament has plenty of AQs that barely have .500 records...IMO it is tough to criticize the AQ format in dIII football...a one loss Maine Maritime team, for example, won't be keeping anyone out of the tournament who might actually win the National Championship.  But playing in the tournament, even if it is for just the first round, gives that program a big lift (especially when compared to the NESCAC schools up in Maine who will never play in the tournament).

[PBR...]

The NCAA hoops tournament has plenty of AQs that barely have .500 records...IMO it is tough to criticize the AQ format in dIII football...a one loss Maine Maritime team, for example, won't be keeping anyone out of the tournament who might actually win the National Championship.  But playing in the tournament, even if it is for just the first round, gives that program a big lift (especially when compared to the NESCAC schools up in Maine who will never play in the tournament).

yup... no one is really questioning the AQ of the process...its the at large bids where people have big questions/problems that is where the main point of most on here focus has been.

[dlippiel]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

The NCAA has said the past that their goal was not to select the best teams and put them in the playoffs.  I would imagine that has not changed.

i know!!! that is why its time for the winds of change to blow! its not a true national champion right now.  but people are all around are really starting to question the way the rankings and selections are done now. Its time for the ncaa to listen to everyone and implement changes, otherwise its going to turn into more of a mythical national championship than it is already

But even if we eliminate those inconsistencies, we're still going to get teams like St. Lawrence in the tournament. Is that any different? What team in the E8 doesn't deserve it over them? As long as there are AQ's, you'll never get the "best" 32 teams in the tournament. There's probably no easy way to look this up, but Pat might know how many times we've seen a 3 or more loss AQ team make the playoffs over the past 10 years or so.

That doesn't mean we can't strive to make the 32 teams as close to the best as we can. It just means you shouldn't hold your breath looking for that.

It's impossible to come up with a fail-proof way of evaluating 200+ teams and identifying the 32 best. Any system will have flaws in it.

It may not get the best 32 in, however, I don't think the system we have doesn't identify the "true" national champion. The second is possible without the first. As Podunk said, exactly who's being left out who's going to beat Whitewater or MUC anyway? You'd be hard pressed to argue that any team being left out was going to affect the national title race.

Ya your right no one deserves to be in the tourney except E8 teams Forget the whole IQ because it's holding the E8 back. We should put the entire E8 into the tourney over every team in every conference that the E8 is rated higher than. Please, IC isn't going anywhere anyway bobmbers nor is any E8 team with the exception of SJF and maybe Alfred, neither of whom has a shot at the title. That was a dick post and a horse**** shot at SLU and the LL.

[Jonny Utah]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

The NCAA has said the past that their goal was not to select the best teams and put them in the playoffs.  I would imagine that has not changed.

i know!!! that is why its time for the winds of change to blow! its not a true national champion right now.  but people are all around are really starting to question the way the rankings and selections are done now. Its time for the ncaa to listen to everyone and implement changes, otherwise its going to turn into more of a mythical national championship than it is already

But even if we eliminate those inconsistencies, we're still going to get teams like St. Lawrence in the tournament. Is that any different? What team in the E8 doesn't deserve it over them? As long as there are AQ's, you'll never get the "best" 32 teams in the tournament. There's probably no easy way to look this up, but Pat might know how many times we've seen a 3 or more loss AQ team make the playoffs over the past 10 years or so.

That doesn't mean we can't strive to make the 32 teams as close to the best as we can. It just means you shouldn't hold your breath looking for that.

It's impossible to come up with a fail-proof way of evaluating 200+ teams and identifying the 32 best. Any system will have flaws in it.

It may not get the best 32 in, however, I don't think the system we have doesn't identify the "true" national champion. The second is possible without the first. As Podunk said, exactly who's being left out who's going to beat Whitewater or MUC anyway? You'd be hard pressed to argue that any team being left out was going to affect the national title race.

Ya your right no one deserves to be in the tourney except E8 teams Forget the whole IQ because it's holding the E8 back. We should put the entire E8 into the tourney over every team in every conference that the E8 is rated higher than. Please, IC isn't going anywhere anyway bobmbers nor is any E8 team with the exception of SJF and maybe Alfred, neither of whom has a shot at the title. That was a dick post and a horse**** shot at SLU and the LL.

I agree with Dlip.  Only E8 teams should be allowed in the eastern bracket.

Seriously Dlip I think you are missing the point.  If there were no AQ, St. Lawrence probably would not make the tourney this year, as they lost to 3 E8 teams, including the E8's 4th or 5th best team.

You do have to face it though, the E8 is a better conference this year.  Although there isn't a huge difference.  SJF and Aflred is probably a notch ahead of everyone, and then everyone else from the E8 and LL is probably the same.