East Region Playoff Discussion

[Frank Rossi]

...and Hobart likely WOULD make it.  So watch what you wish for E8ers.

OK, now for complete seriousness... If you really allowed the elimination of the at-large system, I'd have a feeling the East as a whole would get in less than six teams under current scenarios.  The Committee doesn't want to admit that the East beats up on itself greatly every season and that the best teams actually DO play each other in large part in this Region.  So, I'd rather have the Region represented adequately than have the Committee's sentiment on the "best teams" dictate.

[fisheralum91]

What Frank- A Fisher rematch with Hobart?

[dlippiel]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

The NCAA has said the past that their goal was not to select the best teams and put them in the playoffs.  I would imagine that has not changed.

i know!!! that is why its time for the winds of change to blow! its not a true national champion right now.  but people are all around are really starting to question the way the rankings and selections are done now. Its time for the ncaa to listen to everyone and implement changes, otherwise its going to turn into more of a mythical national championship than it is already

But even if we eliminate those inconsistencies, we're still going to get teams like St. Lawrence in the tournament. Is that any different? What team in the E8 doesn't deserve it over them? As long as there are AQ's, you'll never get the "best" 32 teams in the tournament. There's probably no easy way to look this up, but Pat might know how many times we've seen a 3 or more loss AQ team make the playoffs over the past 10 years or so.

That doesn't mean we can't strive to make the 32 teams as close to the best as we can. It just means you shouldn't hold your breath looking for that.

It's impossible to come up with a fail-proof way of evaluating 200+ teams and identifying the 32 best. Any system will have flaws in it.

It may not get the best 32 in, however, I don't think the system we have doesn't identify the "true" national champion. The second is possible without the first. As Podunk said, exactly who's being left out who's going to beat Whitewater or MUC anyway? You'd be hard pressed to argue that any team being left out was going to affect the national title race.

Ya your right no one deserves to be in the tourney except E8 teams Forget the whole IQ because it's holding the E8 back. We should put the entire E8 into the tourney over every team in every conference that the E8 is rated higher than. Please, IC isn't going anywhere anyway bobmbers nor is any E8 team with the exception of SJF and maybe Alfred, neither of whom has a shot at the title. That was a dick post and a horse**** shot at SLU and the LL.

I agree with Dlip.  Only E8 teams should be allowed in the eastern bracket.

Seriously Dlip I think you are missing the point.  If there were no AQ, St. Lawrence probably would not make the tourney this year, as they lost to 3 E8 teams, including the E8's 4th or 5th best team.

Obviously Jonny, but how many teams could we say that about? We could find teams like that every single year, in every single tourney, across the entire NCAA spectrum. Isn't that part of what helps programs grow and have a realistic goals in the beginning of each year? dlip could give examples of this relative to the E8 as well. ****, the highest ranked east region team is Del Val from the MAC. So let's just not include any teams ranked lower than Del Val from the east? Why even give any team the opportuntiy to upset a higher seed?

[dlippiel]

You do have to face it though, the E8 is a better conference this year.  Although there isn't a huge difference.  SJF and Aflred is probably a notch ahead of everyone, and then everyone else from the E8 and LL is probably the same.

Yes JP dlip concurs with this through and thorugh. Sometimes dlip gets a tad sensitive thats all.

[Bombers798891]

The NCAA hoops tournament has plenty of AQs that barely have .500 records...IMO it is tough to criticize the AQ format in dIII football...a one loss Maine Maritime team, for example, won't be keeping anyone out of the tournament who might actually win the National Championship.  But playing in the tournament, even if it is for just the first round, gives that program a big lift (especially when compared to the NESCAC schools up in Maine who will never play in the tournament).

But that depends on what you believe the goal the playoffs should be. If you think it's to identify the teams who could realistically win the national title, this system works fine. But some believe it's about getting the best 32 teams in. And if that's what you believe it should be, this system (and probably any system with an AQ) is going to frustrate you.

And sure, it's easy for us to say an 8-2 team that played a tough schedule isn't a contender. We've got Mount Union and Whitewater and they render a lot of those discussions moot. But what happens if in 10 or 15 years, we no longer have two or three ultra-dominant teams? Will that 8-2 team not be a contender then? Who knows? But it's nice to think about these things ahead of time. One of Ithaca's three championships was with a two-loss team ('79) and in 1994, they were one play away from the Stagg Bowl with a two-loss team. Now, we're not going to see that. But who's to say we wont in the future? Do you think anyone in the 80's saw Mount and Whitewater dominating?

[AUKaz00]

Prior to the expansion of the tournament, the "best" 16 teams were selected.  It's hard to argue that the best 16 teams don't make the tournament now.  Outside of that group, how many in the 17th to 32nd best teams are true title contenders?  Yes, the tournament would feature better football throughout if the best 32 teams were selected, but I like that every team has a path to entry.  And I think there is some game theory involved in recruiting players who can best perform against your conference opponents.  Not to the same degree as within NFL divisions, but still a potential consideration in recruitment.

[SJFF82]

And in reality if you lose 2 games during the regular season, you might not belong in the playoffs anyway.  Your goal at some point should be to win a national championship.  If Ithaca loses to Lycoming, SJF they probably won't have a chance at winning a national championship.  SJF or Alfred would deserve that chance.

DVC may have lost to Wesley, but they are probably going to beat everyone else.  Even if they lost one MAC game, the other MAC team would have to only have one loss in order to win the MAC.  That isn't going to happen, so DVC should have a good shot at going far.

I've always felt these things work themselves out 99% of the time.

I half-agree with the sentiment, but let's face it: Even before the MUC/Whitewater stranglehold on the championships, how many teams were realistic contenders anyway? For some schools, the playoffs may be the goal. I'm sure, once you cut through all the coach-speak, most coaches are realistic regarding national championships. That's not to say a once down program can't rise up like a Fisher or even Whitewater, but with over 200 teams, most programs aren't ever going to compete on that level. Heck, half the teams that make the playoffs aren't considered anything more than fodder for the Mount Union, Wesley, Whitewater's, Hardin-Baylor's of the world. So for a lot of programs, a playoff berth is that big of a deal.

Sure, us Fisher and IC fans can/could talk about the national contender thing, and Alfred could be on its way. Springfield's had a couple of years where they were really legit. But we're the minority. For a lot of schools, a title isn't a realistic goal, so getting unjustly--in their eyes--left out of the playoffs is a big deal.

great point....but clearly not one that the NCAA will (or can perhaps) address

[JT]

You do have to face it though, the E8 is a better conference this year.  Although there isn't a huge difference.  SJF and Aflred is probably a notch ahead of everyone, and then everyone else from the E8 and LL is probably the same.

Yes JP dlip concurs with this through and thorugh. Sometimes dlip gets a tad sensitive thats all.

Posting a selfish thought... It was certainly easier when there were only 16 teams, and Rowan got in every year.    Note the KC Keeler emotecon

[Jonny Utah]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

The NCAA has said the past that their goal was not to select the best teams and put them in the playoffs.  I would imagine that has not changed.

i know!!! that is why its time for the winds of change to blow! its not a true national champion right now.  but people are all around are really starting to question the way the rankings and selections are done now. Its time for the ncaa to listen to everyone and implement changes, otherwise its going to turn into more of a mythical national championship than it is already

But even if we eliminate those inconsistencies, we're still going to get teams like St. Lawrence in the tournament. Is that any different? What team in the E8 doesn't deserve it over them? As long as there are AQ's, you'll never get the "best" 32 teams in the tournament. There's probably no easy way to look this up, but Pat might know how many times we've seen a 3 or more loss AQ team make the playoffs over the past 10 years or so.

That doesn't mean we can't strive to make the 32 teams as close to the best as we can. It just means you shouldn't hold your breath looking for that.

It's impossible to come up with a fail-proof way of evaluating 200+ teams and identifying the 32 best. Any system will have flaws in it.

It may not get the best 32 in, however, I don't think the system we have doesn't identify the "true" national champion. The second is possible without the first. As Podunk said, exactly who's being left out who's going to beat Whitewater or MUC anyway? You'd be hard pressed to argue that any team being left out was going to affect the national title race.

Ya your right no one deserves to be in the tourney except E8 teams Forget the whole IQ because it's holding the E8 back. We should put the entire E8 into the tourney over every team in every conference that the E8 is rated higher than. Please, IC isn't going anywhere anyway bobmbers nor is any E8 team with the exception of SJF and maybe Alfred, neither of whom has a shot at the title. That was a dick post and a horse**** shot at SLU and the LL.

I agree with Dlip.  Only E8 teams should be allowed in the eastern bracket.

Seriously Dlip I think you are missing the point.  If there were no AQ, St. Lawrence probably would not make the tourney this year, as they lost to 3 E8 teams, including the E8's 4th or 5th best team.

Obviously Jonny, but how many teams could we say that about? We could find teams like that every single year, in every single tourney, across the entire NCAA spectrum. Isn't that part of what helps programs grow and have a realistic goals in the beginning of each year? dlip could give examples of this relative to the E8 as well. ****, the highest ranked east region team is Del Val from the MAC. So let's just not include any teams ranked lower than Del Val from the east? Why even give any team the opportuntiy to upset a higher seed?

I'm only making the point that if you picked the best 8 teams from the east this year to make the playoffs, St. Lawrence would not be one those teams.  I'm not saying that is or isn't the best system.

And I think it is very rare that the LL leader and probable champ is 4-4 after 8 games.  It really doesn't happen every year in the LL or E8 anyway.

[Bombers798891]

You do have to face it though, the E8 is a better conference this year.  Although there isn't a huge difference.  SJF and Aflred is probably a notch ahead of everyone, and then everyone else from the E8 and LL is probably the same.

Yes JP dlip concurs with this through and thorugh. Sometimes dlip gets a tad sensitive thats all.

Dlip, let me apologize. That was my attempt to point out, that every so often, you get an AQ that is not as strong as a team that misses out on a Pool C bid. I simply used St. Lawrence for the fact that it's, in my view, a pertinent example. Yes, some of that is because they have lost to E8 teams that are going to miss the playoffs, although I didn't intend to make it sound like the LL is an inferior conference as a whole. It's mainly just because I see the "4" in the loss column. I never meant to infer that they're a bad program. There are other examples of 3- and 4-loss teams that have made the playoffs, I just couldn't remember any (Christopher Newport? Randolph-Macon?). Heck, you could concoct a scenario where the E8 could have gotten a 4-6 team in the playoffs at the start of the year, and if a 4-6 IC got a Pool A while an 8-2 Union who beat them got left out of Pool C, that would be stupid too. I should have used that hypothetical example instead of the Saints specific situation. Apologies

Obviously, I have a great deal of respect for Raymond and that program--I even spoke to him after the IC game

[Jonny Utah]

...and Hobart likely WOULD make it.  So watch what you wish for E8ers.

OK, now for complete seriousness... If you really allowed the elimination of the at-large system, I'd have a feeling the East as a whole would get in less than six teams under current scenarios.  The Committee doesn't want to admit that the East beats up on itself greatly every season and that the best teams actually DO play each other in large part in this Region.  So, I'd rather have the Region represented adequately than have the Committee's sentiment on the "best teams" dictate.

I'm not so sure Hobart would make it.  This would be the standings if you combined the LL and E8 with conference records reflecting the crossover games (Cortland not included)

SJF 5-1, 7-1
Alf 4-1, 6-1
ITH 4-1, 5-2
St. Lawrence 4-3, 4-4
SC 2-2, 5-2
Utica 2-2, 5-2
Hobart 2-2, 4-2,
MM 2-2, 3-5
Union 2-3, 2-4
RPI 2-3, 3-3
WPI 1-3, 3-4
Roch 1-4, 1-5
Wick 0-3, 2-4

[union89]

I hate to waste post #3,000 on the Regional Rankings, but give me a break -- MUC at #3 tells me how much is wrong with the whole process.  The SoS numbers are a joke now, officially.

thank you...pbr was getting tired of banging what seemed like the lone drum for the last couple of years...agreed the whole process needs a MAJOR revamp...complete watered down product....

dlip just stopped even looking at them 

Even though the Regional Rankings may be flawed, you can count on the Selection Committee ignoring them altogether if they so desire.

Case in point, 2005: Regional rankings had, among others, in order St. John Fisher, then Alfred, with Wilkes behind Alfred. In Week 11 that year, Alfred beat St. John Fisher 13-7 to finish 8-2, same as Wilkes, who beat an (unranked) Kings 36-13. Yet Wilkes was selected over Alfred and the Colonels went on to suffer a 42-3 loss at Rowan.

Rankings mean little or nothing to Pep anymore.

pbr just keeps wandering how long its going to take for all the coaches/a.d.'s to wise up to the "way things are done..." and schedule nothing but cupcakes and walkovers to increase their chances to make the playoffs since nothing but records matter.  Its good to play someone like Wesley this year if your DVC and the coach is confident you can run the table in your league even if you lose to a top team. But if your a coach and not sure why take the chance...play the cupcakes and pump that record up to 10-0 on weak sisters (o.o.c. games) and run the table in your league or still have a chance if you lose 1 game in your league. Soon d3 will be a bunch of teams 10-0/9-1 and having played no one and no one has an idea of who is a contender/pretender....alas here we thought d3 might be different so they had a playoff to determine a national champion...now its a "well we think they are the best team but we're not so sure..."

One way of looking at it....but it won't happen.  Many alumns clammor for great regional matchups (ie., Union vs. Ithaca).  In the past, Union wouldn't schedule this game supposedly because Ithaca was not a like institution (I HATE that excuse).  Many ex-Union players wrote letters and made their feeling felt that an Ithaca game was not only good for both institutions, but Upstate football in general.  The administration listened and the game was added when both schools were finished with their current OOC commitments.

Heck, you can schedule the best OOC schedule in the country and lose every game...win your conference and you're in....scheduling solid OOC teams will make your team better....screw the Regional Ranking and take care of things you can control.

[Jonny Utah]

I hate to waste post #3,000 on the Regional Rankings, but give me a break -- MUC at #3 tells me how much is wrong with the whole process.  The SoS numbers are a joke now, officially.

thank you...pbr was getting tired of banging what seemed like the lone drum for the last couple of years...agreed the whole process needs a MAJOR revamp...complete watered down product....

dlip just stopped even looking at them 

Even though the Regional Rankings may be flawed, you can count on the Selection Committee ignoring them altogether if they so desire.

Case in point, 2005: Regional rankings had, among others, in order St. John Fisher, then Alfred, with Wilkes behind Alfred. In Week 11 that year, Alfred beat St. John Fisher 13-7 to finish 8-2, same as Wilkes, who beat an (unranked) Kings 36-13. Yet Wilkes was selected over Alfred and the Colonels went on to suffer a 42-3 loss at Rowan.

Rankings mean little or nothing to Pep anymore.

pbr just keeps wandering how long its going to take for all the coaches/a.d.'s to wise up to the "way things are done..." and schedule nothing but cupcakes and walkovers to increase their chances to make the playoffs since nothing but records matter.  Its good to play someone like Wesley this year if your DVC and the coach is confident you can run the table in your league even if you lose to a top team. But if your a coach and not sure why take the chance...play the cupcakes and pump that record up to 10-0 on weak sisters (o.o.c. games) and run the table in your league or still have a chance if you lose 1 game in your league. Soon d3 will be a bunch of teams 10-0/9-1 and having played no one and no one has an idea of who is a contender/pretender....alas here we thought d3 might be different so they had a playoff to determine a national champion...now its a "well we think they are the best team but we're not so sure..."

One way of looking at it....but it won't happen.  Many alumns clammor for great regional matchups (ie., Union vs. Ithaca).  In the past, Union wouldn't schedule this game supposedly because Ithaca was not a like institution (I HATE that excuse).  Many ex-Union players wrote letters and made their feeling felt that an Ithaca game was not only good for both institutions, but Upstate football in general.  The administration listened and the game was added when both schools were finished with their current OOC commitments.

Heck, you can schedule the best OOC schedule in the country and lose every game...win your conference and you're in....scheduling solid OOC teams will make your team better....screw the Regional Ranking and take care of things you can control.

U89 any word if the series is still going to go on?

[union89]

I feel like some of the coaches I've spoken to (at least at IC) don't want a cupcake OOC schedule because it indirectly sends the message that the NEED those cupcakes to have a record worthy of the playoffs, implying that they won't make it by their own accord. They don't even want to talk about the best/easiest way to get at-large bids because they don't want to send the message the conference title is not a realistic goal.

exactly...this is what pbr hates about all of this...it gives us the fans a watered down product. It puts the coaches in a very tough spot....agreed they don't want to play a cupcake schedule BUT all it takes is several seasons of going 9-1 and being left outside looking in and that could all change. Teams going 10-0 playing soft schedules will force the outliers to come over to cupcake scheduling or continue to lose out. The worst is we as fans won't see any kind of good matchups during the season for o.o.c scheduling. The ncaa could end all of this by completely changing how they select teams but the ball is in their court....

The NCAA has said the past that their goal was not to select the best teams and put them in the playoffs.  I would imagine that has not changed.

i know!!! that is why its time for the winds of change to blow! its not a true national champion right now.  but people are all around are really starting to question the way the rankings and selections are done now. Its time for the ncaa to listen to everyone and implement changes, otherwise its going to turn into more of a mythical national championship than it is already

But even if we eliminate those inconsistencies, we're still going to get teams like St. Lawrence in the tournament. Is that any different? What team in the E8 doesn't deserve it over them? As long as there are AQ's, you'll never get the "best" 32 teams in the tournament. There's probably no easy way to look this up, but Pat might know how many times we've seen a 3 or more loss AQ team make the playoffs over the past 10 years or so.

That doesn't mean we can't strive to make the 32 teams as close to the best as we can. It just means you shouldn't hold your breath looking for that.

It's impossible to come up with a fail-proof way of evaluating 200+ teams and identifying the 32 best. Any system will have flaws in it.

It may not get the best 32 in, however, I don't think the system we have doesn't identify the "true" national champion. The second is possible without the first. As Podunk said, exactly who's being left out who's going to beat Whitewater or MUC anyway? You'd be hard pressed to argue that any team being left out was going to affect the national title race.

Wow.....very well put +1k.

Shockingly, you E8 guys have been making tons of sense over the past couple days!!

[Jonny Utah]

I think we all have to realize one thing here about the E8 and LL this year, and that is St. Lawrence has been a wildcard.  SLU had close games against all LL and E8 teams this year.  If the ball bounced one way or the other in 2 of those SLU games, we might not even be able to tell which conference is better.