East Region Playoff Discussion

[Jonny Utah]

Some tgreat thoughts on here. I have been reading with interest over the last few days and thought I'd chime in from an outsiders perspective.

This series of arguments is a repeat of years of arguments we have had in the North and elsewhere the past few years. As a follower of the CCIW and a Wheaton fan, I can speak with some experience as Wheaton has made the playoffs 6 times in the last 15 years. They have won every playoff game in the North to teams not named Mt Union. They won the north region in 2008 (which is the last time UWW or Mt Union were not in the North) and lost to Mt in the Semi's.

I don't think the East is getting screwed by anybody (except maybe the NESCAC). you have 51 eligble teams (61 with the NESCAC teams) and 4 Pool A bids (which would be 5 if not for the ....). the North has 56 teams, the west 58 teams and the south 60 teams. The NCAA won't get rid of the regional concept because they want to reward teams who don't spend money in scheduling. That said I totally agree with the concept that scheduling tough games is NOT rewarded.

In the CCIW this year the conference went 23-1 in non conference games. 7 of their 8 teams are now in the top SOS based on this despite playing the likes of Olivet, greenville, Luther, Albion, Illinois College, Benedictine, etc. Their non AQ (the loser of this weeks NCC/Wheaton game) is a virtual lock for a Pool C based on the SOS and other criteria despite playing a "weak sauce" non conference schedule. Last year, North Central went 8-2 and didn't get in as Pool C because they lost in week 1 to Ohio Northern. Thanks for scheduling. If they had played Olivet and finished 9-1, they are in the playoffs.

Separately, the idea of the East being "weak" stems from 2002 when John Carroll was the OAC #2 and a pool C and won the East bracket, falling to Mt in the semis. Since that time there hasn't been a competitive East game against Mt Union (except maybe Ithaca in 07). Prior to that, the East was perceived to be strong with Rowan and much earlier the likes of Ithaca, Union, Salisbury, etc making deep post season runs. I don't think the perception is accurate, but that is how it has come about IMO. It will take some cross regional competition to change that, barring a deep post season run and/or a competitive game vs Mt Union.

In the North, we know we either get Mt Union or UWW in our bracket every year. All you can do is win your games and get seeded opposite them in your region. That gives you at least a couple post season games and the experience of playing at Mt Union/UWW to help your program try and close the gap. North Central is working on the formula to compete with the big dogs. Their theory is 1 player from every 10 recruits (raising their roster to 150+ this year) and scheduling tough teams across regions to raise their profile (despite it costing them a pool C last year). We will all know in a month or so how it is working out!

Usee, which pool C team made the playoffs last year over North Central?  (I'm trying to find a 2009 bracket on the site but I'm having trouble)

[boobyhasgameyo]

Some tgreat thoughts on here. I have been reading with interest over the last few days and thought I'd chime in from an outsiders perspective.

This series of arguments is a repeat of years of arguments we have had in the North and elsewhere the past few years. As a follower of the CCIW and a Wheaton fan, I can speak with some experience as Wheaton has made the playoffs 6 times in the last 15 years. They have won every playoff game in the North to teams not named Mt Union. They won the north region in 2008 (which is the last time UWW or Mt Union were not in the North) and lost to Mt in the Semi's.

I don't think the East is getting screwed by anybody (except maybe the NESCAC). you have 51 eligble teams (61 with the NESCAC teams) and 4 Pool A bids (which would be 5 if not for the ....). the North has 56 teams, the west 58 teams and the south 60 teams. The NCAA won't get rid of the regional concept because they want to reward teams who don't spend money in scheduling. That said I totally agree with the concept that scheduling tough games is NOT rewarded.

In the CCIW this year the conference went 23-1 in non conference games. 7 of their 8 teams are now in the top SOS based on this despite playing the likes of Olivet, greenville, Luther, Albion, Illinois College, Benedictine, etc. Their non AQ (the loser of this weeks NCC/Wheaton game) is a virtual lock for a Pool C based on the SOS and other criteria despite playing a "weak sauce" non conference schedule. Last year, North Central went 8-2 and didn't get in as Pool C because they lost in week 1 to Ohio Northern. Thanks for scheduling. If they had played Olivet and finished 9-1, they are in the playoffs.

Separately, the idea of the East being "weak" stems from 2002 when John Carroll was the OAC #2 and a pool C and won the East bracket, falling to Mt in the semis. Since that time there hasn't been a competitive East game against Mt Union (except maybe Ithaca in 07). Prior to that, the East was perceived to be strong with Rowan and much earlier the likes of Ithaca, Union, Salisbury, etc making deep post season runs. I don't think the perception is accurate, but that is how it has come about IMO. It will take some cross regional competition to change that, barring a deep post season run and/or a competitive game vs Mt Union.

In the North, we know we either get Mt Union or UWW in our bracket every year. All you can do is win your games and get seeded opposite them in your region. That gives you at least a couple post season games and the experience of playing at Mt Union/UWW to help your program try and close the gap. North Central is working on the formula to compete with the big dogs. Their theory is 1 player from every 10 recruits (raising their roster to 150+ this year) and scheduling tough teams across regions to raise their profile (despite it costing them a pool C last year). We will all know in a month or so how it is working out!

Yes, the year before that the Eastern representative St. John Fisher had a competitive game in Mount Union in a 26-14 contest.  I think the East fares the same as Northern teams against Mount Union.  No better, no worse.  I am excited by the East this year though.  We may not have an undefeated team but we have some solid teams.  Bring on Mount Union.  They will have to go through a really strong DVC team and some other solid teams like whichever team represents the NJAC (I like all 3 this year), Fisher if they make it, etc.

By the way how long exactly is the East supposed to be punished by what happened in 2002?  That was 8 years ago...Give us another pool C north team this year instead if you must and let's see what happens.   

[Jonny Utah]

Let's not forget 2001 when a clock operator screwed the east.

[pg04]

I don't mean this to be taken as insulting or anything, I want a serious answer, but give me reasons to be excited about the East's Chances this year. 

[maxpower]

Are there any? Do you mean against Mount or UWW? I mean, the opportunity to even play them would be exciting I guess....

[theoriginalupstate]

I don't mean this to be taken as insulting or anything, I want a serious answer, but give me reasons to be excited about the East's Chances this year. 

Mount's best player is battling an injury (Shorts)...

That's about all I have...

[Frank Rossi]

Some tgreat thoughts on here. I have been reading with interest over the last few days and thought I'd chime in from an outsiders perspective.

This series of arguments is a repeat of years of arguments we have had in the North and elsewhere the past few years. As a follower of the CCIW and a Wheaton fan, I can speak with some experience as Wheaton has made the playoffs 6 times in the last 15 years. They have won every playoff game in the North to teams not named Mt Union. They won the north region in 2008 (which is the last time UWW or Mt Union were not in the North) and lost to Mt in the Semi's.

I don't think the East is getting screwed by anybody (except maybe the NESCAC). you have 51 eligble teams (61 with the NESCAC teams) and 4 Pool A bids (which would be 5 if not for the ....). the North has 56 teams, the west 58 teams and the south 60 teams. The NCAA won't get rid of the regional concept because they want to reward teams who don't spend money in scheduling. That said I totally agree with the concept that scheduling tough games is NOT rewarded.

In the CCIW this year the conference went 23-1 in non conference games. 7 of their 8 teams are now in the top SOS based on this despite playing the likes of Olivet, greenville, Luther, Albion, Illinois College, Benedictine, etc. Their non AQ (the loser of this weeks NCC/Wheaton game) is a virtual lock for a Pool C based on the SOS and other criteria despite playing a "weak sauce" non conference schedule. Last year, North Central went 8-2 and didn't get in as Pool C because they lost in week 1 to Ohio Northern. Thanks for scheduling. If they had played Olivet and finished 9-1, they are in the playoffs.

Separately, the idea of the East being "weak" stems from 2002 when John Carroll was the OAC #2 and a pool C and won the East bracket, falling to Mt in the semis. Since that time there hasn't been a competitive East game against Mt Union (except maybe Ithaca in 07). Prior to that, the East was perceived to be strong with Rowan and much earlier the likes of Ithaca, Union, Salisbury, etc making deep post season runs. I don't think the perception is accurate, but that is how it has come about IMO. It will take some cross regional competition to change that, barring a deep post season run and/or a competitive game vs Mt Union.

In the North, we know we either get Mt Union or UWW in our bracket every year. All you can do is win your games and get seeded opposite them in your region. That gives you at least a couple post season games and the experience of playing at Mt Union/UWW to help your program try and close the gap. North Central is working on the formula to compete with the big dogs. Their theory is 1 player from every 10 recruits (raising their roster to 150+ this year) and scheduling tough teams across regions to raise their profile (despite it costing them a pool C last year). We will all know in a month or so how it is working out!

Usee, which pool C team made the playoffs last year over North Central?  (I'm trying to find a 2009 bracket on the site but I'm having trouble)

W&J

[Jonny Utah]

I don't mean this to be taken as insulting or anything, I want a serious answer, but give me reasons to be excited about the East's Chances this year. 

This morning on an ESPN college football recap show, they were showing the end of the Air Force/Utah game.  Air Force was down by 6 in the final 2 minutes and was driving towards midfield.  On 4th and 7 they ran an option  (and got sort of stuffed) and the host asked/commented about the play saying something to the effect of "4th and long?  Was the Option the right play?"  And Lou Holtz said "yes it was the right play because they had faith in it".  

Like Booby kind of pointed out.  That is the attitude you have to take.  Stop whining about this small stuff and beat those bastards.

[pg04]

Ha.  Using Lou Holtz isn't going to help your argument with me 

[JT]

I don't mean this to be taken as insulting or anything, I want a serious answer, but give me reasons to be excited about the East's Chances this year.  

This morning on an ESPN college football recap show, they were showing the end of the Air Force/Utah game.  Air Force was down by 6 in the final 2 minutes and was driving towards midfield.  On 4th and 7 they ran an option  (and got sort of stuffed) and the host asked/commented about the play saying something to the effect of "4th and long?  Was the Option the right play?"  And Lou Holtz said "yes it was the right play because they had faith in it".  

Like Booby kind of pointed out.  That is the attitude you have to take.  Stop whining about this small stuff and beat those bastards.

Sometimes it matters not that you beat them, but when you beat them.  Let's put DVC or Wesley, or another East or South team in the Stagg against UWW or Mount.

If they can rearrange the brackets to try and keep teams out of the Stagg (Rowan 1999), they can do it in 2010.

[Jonny Utah]

Some tgreat thoughts on here. I have been reading with interest over the last few days and thought I'd chime in from an outsiders perspective.

This series of arguments is a repeat of years of arguments we have had in the North and elsewhere the past few years. As a follower of the CCIW and a Wheaton fan, I can speak with some experience as Wheaton has made the playoffs 6 times in the last 15 years. They have won every playoff game in the North to teams not named Mt Union. They won the north region in 2008 (which is the last time UWW or Mt Union were not in the North) and lost to Mt in the Semi's.

I don't think the East is getting screwed by anybody (except maybe the NESCAC). you have 51 eligble teams (61 with the NESCAC teams) and 4 Pool A bids (which would be 5 if not for the ....). the North has 56 teams, the west 58 teams and the south 60 teams. The NCAA won't get rid of the regional concept because they want to reward teams who don't spend money in scheduling. That said I totally agree with the concept that scheduling tough games is NOT rewarded.

In the CCIW this year the conference went 23-1 in non conference games. 7 of their 8 teams are now in the top SOS based on this despite playing the likes of Olivet, greenville, Luther, Albion, Illinois College, Benedictine, etc. Their non AQ (the loser of this weeks NCC/Wheaton game) is a virtual lock for a Pool C based on the SOS and other criteria despite playing a "weak sauce" non conference schedule. Last year, North Central went 8-2 and didn't get in as Pool C because they lost in week 1 to Ohio Northern. Thanks for scheduling. If they had played Olivet and finished 9-1, they are in the playoffs.

Separately, the idea of the East being "weak" stems from 2002 when John Carroll was the OAC #2 and a pool C and won the East bracket, falling to Mt in the semis. Since that time there hasn't been a competitive East game against Mt Union (except maybe Ithaca in 07). Prior to that, the East was perceived to be strong with Rowan and much earlier the likes of Ithaca, Union, Salisbury, etc making deep post season runs. I don't think the perception is accurate, but that is how it has come about IMO. It will take some cross regional competition to change that, barring a deep post season run and/or a competitive game vs Mt Union.

In the North, we know we either get Mt Union or UWW in our bracket every year. All you can do is win your games and get seeded opposite them in your region. That gives you at least a couple post season games and the experience of playing at Mt Union/UWW to help your program try and close the gap. North Central is working on the formula to compete with the big dogs. Their theory is 1 player from every 10 recruits (raising their roster to 150+ this year) and scheduling tough teams across regions to raise their profile (despite it costing them a pool C last year). We will all know in a month or so how it is working out!

Usee, which pool C team made the playoffs last year over North Central?  (I'm trying to find a 2009 bracket on the site but I'm having trouble)

W&J

And would it have been a guarentee that they would have gotten in over W&J with one loss?  W&J may have been overated the last 5 or so years with some duds in the playoffs, but they have had some pretty solid seasons.  

[Frank Rossi]

W&J was a controversial 32nd team.  Pat was on ITH with the Chair and hammered at her a bit because the numbers didn't make sense.

[JT]

Ha.  Using Lou Holtz isn't going to help your argument with me  

This is the same guy that had Joe Namath on bad knees run the option with the Jets in the early 70's.  After I read Under the Tarnished Dome (even if 1/3 true, and 2/3 embellished) Holtz is a sleaze with a polished public persona.

[Mr. Ypsi]

A minor correction to USee's otherwise excellent post: the CCIW 'only' went 22-2, not 23-1.  Augustana lost a close one to ranked Central and North Park (currently 0 for the millennium in conference play) lost by 2 to Aurora (but beat soon-to-be NathCon champ Benedictine by 11).  I'd also like to see the conference upgrade the non-con schedules, but as been pointed out (and NCC found out last year), there is little incentive to do so.

In response to an earlier question, I don't recall who the pool Cs over NCC were last year, but ALL were one-loss teams.

[redswarm81]

As a small tease to Keith's article this week, here's my answer to this question when he posed it to me:

3. If you have to go through Mount Union to win it all anyway, what difference does it make when you do it?

There are two reasons. First, the disrespect issue -- it penalizes the East teams that schedule strong out-of-conference opponents (like Delaware Valley when the team schedules Wesley).  Because of the severe risk DelVal took, the team now likely gets penalized with the potential of just two home playoff games if it makes it that far.  That's a complete sign of disrespect to a team that tried to give the country an exciting cross-regional game.

I must start a tangent from this well-taken point.  The "problem"--from every perspective--is that the NCAA makes it clear that its emphasis is on promoting regional competition, in both schedules AND in selecting and seeding teams for the national tournament.  So yes, DelValCol faces the risk of losing to an out-of-region opponent.  However, out of region results are removed from the primary selection and seeding criteria.¹   So the "disrespect" is built in to the selection and seeding criteria published by the NCAA, which--to be fair--is consistent with the NCAA's emphasis on promoting regional competition.

¹ At least, that is, until the top four tournament seeds are chosen.  Then, as near as I can tell, all bets are off, since there are no published criteria for seeding the top four teams.

(I might be alone in the universe in commending the NCAA for promoting regional competition, and in questioning the marginal value of a national tournament that affects ~13% of teams, over 8, 9, or 10 game seasons for 100% of teams with spirited regionally competitive schedules.)