East Region Playoff Discussion

[usee]

I am a Wheaton guy and I don't think CCIW teams are any better/worse than equally ranked East/West, etc. We do have more data on Wheaton than  some of the east programs for what its worth. Wheaton played Bethel in the regular season each of the past 2 years and won both times (both in close games). I believe Augie played Union or Catholic a few years back in a home and home series and split if memory serves. There are lots of examples of CCIW teams playing intra-regional games (Wheaton v UWP, NCC vs UWEC, Augie v Central, etc)

I will also say, 1 year after JCU was shipped east, Baldwin Wallace from the OAC was a highly regarded pool C team and was paired in the North in round 2 against Wheaton. Of course we heard all week that week about how BW was going to run through all teams until they faced Mount again. They came to Wheaton with one of the better qb's in the OAC (Dan Larlham) and lost 16-12. So the only difference I can see is that Wheaton beat a very good OAC #2 team in the playoffs a year after JCU won the east. That game, as much as any other, gave the perception that Wheaton was "competitive" oustide of Mt Union. I don't agree with the perception and I think the top East teams can compete with other teams outside the "top 2" very well.

[boobyhasgameyo]

The East should hope that Mount is the #1 seed this year, because if there EVER was a year that they MAY be vulnerable, this is the year. 

Hmmm, that sentiment sounds familiar.   Were you reading Page 179?


I find all the pissing & moaning in the East to be rather humorous.  The North dealt with for years.  Wheaton is 9-0 in the playoffs against anyone not named Mount Union.  0-6 against Mount.  Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy. 


In regards to the previous posts complaining about JCU barely winning the East back in '02,  JCU would have been a low seed in the North too, yet they went on the road 3 times and won.  If the NCAA would have taken a high seed from the North and than that team barely win the East, then you'd have a point about how strong the East is and how weak the North is.  But when a low seed from one region goes on the road and wins another region, what other conclusion is to be drawn from that?  Upsets happen and a lesser team can win a game they shouldn't if things break right, but 3 of them?

I've seen many times people pointing to SJF's 26-14 loss to Mount as being a testament of how good SJF (and the East) was, even though Kmic ran for 371 yards.  If you are going to discredit JCU's close wins because of extenuating circumstances and selectively pick out certain points to make you argument, but overlook the big picture, then I'll point to Mount hiding Micheli's passing ability as the only reason SJF was within 30 points of Mount.  LK knew the only team that could touch his Raiders was UWW in the Stagg and he wanted a trick up his sleeve and since the East posed no threat to Mount, he could simply run Kmic over and over again.   

Mount Union's 2006 season

Week #1 Win 64-7
Week #2  Win 71-14
Week #3 Win 62-0
Week #4 Win 58-0
Week #5 Win 49-7
Week # 6 Win 65-9
Week # 7 Win 14-0
Week #8 Win 38-12
Week #9 Win 31-14
Week # 10 Win 45-17
Week #11 (Playoffs) Win 49-0
Week #12 (Playoffs) Win 35-3
Week #13 (Playoffs) Win 17-14
Week #14 (Playoffs) Win 26-14
Week #15 (Championship) Win 35-16

What can we take away from that?  If Mount Union had the opportunity to absolutely blow away a team, even by 49 in the playoffs, they freaking did.  To suggest they were "hiding" their passing game is absurd.  They didn't hide their passing game throughout the regular season.  They didn't hide their passing game in the freaking playoffs.  Why would they decide all of a sudden oh hey let's hide it against this one team.  Oh by the way in the process of this "hiding" let's put ourself one or two plays away from just flat out losing the game...that would be really smart.  In the press release after the coach would just say "oh we could have beaten them by 30 like we were doing to every other team that year without a problem, but you see we wanted to hide an element to our game and whoops one or two bad bounces later we lost"

Fisher couldn't stop Kmic and the coach ran with it.  He wasn't hiding sh*t.  We had probably the best cornerback in the country that year and a pretty damn fine secondary.  For such high road fans that argument by your team that I have heard on and off throughout the years is one of the most ridiculous ones I have ever heard.

[boobyhasgameyo]

Oh and by the way...you guys all say this is the year Mount Union is most vulnerable yet AGAIN no team from the North has beaten them...they remain undefeated.  So what exactly is that saying about your region again I forget? 

[fisheralum91]

thanks boob,
I thought i was the only one that took offense to that piece of crap post

[maxpower]

I actually like the Wheaton example. He's right, there's no team in the East that's come even close to dominating everyone else. When you look at it that way, why shouldn't the NCAA bring Mount Union over? Basically, what they are saying is: You guys have shown us nothing that says that Mount wouldn't destroy you in the semi's, so we'll move them up a round and make sure two better teams don't get eliminated earlier so that someone like Albright or SJF can foregone conclusion-ly lose in a more important game. Any of that make sense?

[Yanks 99]

I actually like the Wheaton example. He's right, there's no team in the East that's come even close to dominating everyone else. When you look at it that way, why shouldn't the NCAA bring Mount Union over? Basically, what they are saying is: You guys have shown us nothing that says that Mount wouldn't destroy you in the semi's, so we'll move them up a round and make sure two better teams don't get eliminated earlier so that someone like Albright or SJF can foregone conclusion-ly lose in a more important game. Any of that make sense?

I hear you...but HScoach said "Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy."  What unworldly level have they reached that is any different then the East teams?  Going as far as they can in the playoffs until they meet MUC?  We pretty much all do that...except UWW.

[maxpower]

I also don't see what you SJF guys are taking such offense to. It's not like you *almost* beat MUC or anything. I don't care what the score was at any point in the game; if your favorite NFL team lost by 12, you would never say we *almost* won.

I see what the North guys see in the East: a bunch of conferences in total chaos with no clear dominant team in any of them.... which could point to a lot of teams being good, but then look what happens when they play Mount: the same thing that happens against all the lower seeded teams.


Yanks: Show me a team that, like Wheaton, has won EVERY GAME except the ones they play against MUC. We don't have any.

[Doid23]

The East should hope that Mount is the #1 seed this year, because if there EVER was a year that they MAY be vulnerable, this is the year. 

Hmmm, that sentiment sounds familiar.   Were you reading Page 179?


I find all the pissing & moaning in the East to be rather humorous.  The North dealt with for years.  Wheaton is 9-0 in the playoffs against anyone not named Mount Union.  0-6 against Mount.  Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy. 


In regards to the previous posts complaining about JCU barely winning the East back in '02,  JCU would have been a low seed in the North too, yet they went on the road 3 times and won.  If the NCAA would have taken a high seed from the North and than that team barely win the East, then you'd have a point about how strong the East is and how weak the North is.  But when a low seed from one region goes on the road and wins another region, what other conclusion is to be drawn from that?  Upsets happen and a lesser team can win a game they shouldn't if things break right, but 3 of them?

I've seen many times people pointing to SJF's 26-14 loss to Mount as being a testament of how good SJF (and the East) was, even though Kmic ran for 371 yards.  If you are going to discredit JCU's close wins because of extenuating circumstances and selectively pick out certain points to make you argument, but overlook the big picture, then I'll point to Mount hiding Micheli's passing ability as the only reason SJF was within 30 points of Mount.  LK knew the only team that could touch his Raiders was UWW in the Stagg and he wanted a trick up his sleeve and since the East posed no threat to Mount, he could simply run Kmic over and over again.   

Mount Union's 2006 season

Week #1 Win 64-7
Week #2  Win 71-14
Week #3 Win 62-0
Week #4 Win 58-0
Week #5 Win 49-7
Week # 6 Win 65-9
Week # 7 Win 14-0
Week #8 Win 38-12
Week #9 Win 31-14
Week # 10 Win 45-17
Week #11 (Playoffs) Win 49-0
Week #12 (Playoffs) Win 35-3
Week #13 (Playoffs) Win 17-14
Week #14 (Playoffs) Win 26-14
Week #15 (Championship) Win 35-16

What can we take away from that?  If Mount Union had the opportunity to absolutely blow away a team, even by 49 in the playoffs, they freaking did.  To suggest they were "hiding" their passing game is absurd.  They didn't hide their passing game throughout the regular season.  They didn't hide their passing game in the freaking playoffs.  Why would they decide all of a sudden oh hey let's hide it against this one team.  Oh by the way in the process of this "hiding" let's put ourself one or two plays away from just flat out losing the game...that would be really smart.  In the press release after the coach would just say "oh we could have beaten them by 30 like we were doing to every other team that year without a problem, but you see we wanted to hide an element to our game and whoops one or two bad bounces later we lost"

Fisher couldn't stop Kmic and the coach ran with it.  He wasn't hiding sh*t.  We had probably the best cornerback in the country that year and a pretty damn fine secondary.  For such high road fans that argument by your team that I have heard on and off throughout the years is one of the most ridiculous ones I have ever heard.

Booby DOES have game yo! Nailed it, +K. Oh, and if the MUC coach thought that UWW was the only team that could touch him, then what about the 17-14 Capital game? Did he not think they could beat him either? Did he hide his passing game for that game too? That would make him an awful coach, and well, we certainly know that's not the case.

[maxpower]

I am a Wheaton guy and I don't think CCIW teams are any better/worse than equally ranked East/West, etc. We do have more data on Wheaton than  some of the east programs for what its worth. Wheaton played Bethel in the regular season each of the past 2 years and won both times (both in close games). I believe Augie played Union or Catholic a few years back in a home and home series and split if memory serves. There are lots of examples of CCIW teams playing intra-regional games (Wheaton v UWP, NCC vs UWEC, Augie v Central, etc)

I will also say, 1 year after JCU was shipped east, Baldwin Wallace from the OAC was a highly regarded pool C team and was paired in the North in round 2 against Wheaton. Of course we heard all week that week about how BW was going to run through all teams until they faced Mount again. They came to Wheaton with one of the better qb's in the OAC (Dan Larlham) and lost 16-12. So the only difference I can see is that Wheaton beat a very good OAC #2 team in the playoffs a year after JCU won the east. That game, as much as any other, gave the perception that Wheaton was "competitive" oustide of Mt Union. I don't agree with the perception and I think the top East teams can compete with other teams outside the "top 2" very well.

informative, +k

[Yanks 99]

I also don't see what you SJF guys are taking such offense to. It's not like you *almost* beat MUC or anything. I don't care what the score was at any point in the game; if your favorite NFL team lost by 12, you would never say we *almost* won.

I see what the North guys see in the East: a bunch of conferences in total chaos with no clear dominant team in any of them.... which could point to a lot of teams being good, but then look what happens when they play Mount: the same thing that happens against all the lower seeded teams.


Yanks: Show me a team that, like Wheaton, has won EVERY GAME except the ones they play against MUC. We don't have any.

Fisher only has one loss in the playoffs ever to a team not named MUC.  Wheaton is no different then them.  I mean...what are we talking about here?  Wheaton is a very good program...but what the hell have they done that makes me even think for a second to put them either at the level of MUC/UWW, or just a notch below them?  They had one semi-final run in 2008 (lost to MUC), lost in the second round to MUC in 2006, and then didn't even make the playoffs in 2009, 2007, or 2005.  As unlikely as it may seem now, what happens if they lose a close one to North Central and then get upset by Millikin the following week and miss the playoffs (they aren't getting in at 8-2 on a two game losing streak)?

[maxpower]

So I don't know much about Wheaton, and using it as a specific example is probably, as USee said, dumb.

Here's my real point: Yes Fisher had a great run in the playoffs. They also haven't made the playoffs since 2007. That's not so dominant to me. I think you (us) E8 guys think our conference is a LOT stronger than it really is. It seems more and more like we're just on a merry-go-round of who can choke against the same team every year, and then get buried in the playoffs. But what conference is a better representation of the East than the E8?

[Yanks 99]

So I don't know much about Wheaton, and using it as a specific example is probably, as USee said, dumb.

Here's my real point: Yes Fisher had a great run in the playoffs. They also haven't made the playoffs since 2007. That's not so dominant to me. I think you (us) E8 guys think our conference is a LOT stronger than it really is. It seems more and more like we're just on a merry-go-round of who can choke against the same team every year, and then get buried in the playoffs. But what conference is a better representation of the East than the E8?

You aren't wrong in your assessment on some of the inconsistency of the East.  I just don't think parity is a reason to degrade the East, and allow the North Region teams (absent of MUC) to get a pass when some of them avoid/don't play MUC in the regular season and then turn around and tell us how strong their teams are and that they only lose to MUC.

I mentioned this once before, and it still stands.  The North Region teams combined have as many wins over the East Region teams over the past 11 years...one each...with many, many more chances.  Some of the teams are terrible and have no chance to take them down...but they still get so many more opportunities to do so as a Region, with basically zero success.

[Jonny Utah]

I also don't see what you SJF guys are taking such offense to. It's not like you *almost* beat MUC or anything. I don't care what the score was at any point in the game; if your favorite NFL team lost by 12, you would never say we *almost* won.

I see what the North guys see in the East: a bunch of conferences in total chaos with no clear dominant team in any of them.... which could point to a lot of teams being good, but then look what happens when they play Mount: the same thing that happens against all the lower seeded teams.


Yanks: Show me a team that, like Wheaton, has won EVERY GAME except the ones they play against MUC. We don't have any.

Well Curry used to be that team didn't they?  What if MUC was in the east back then.  Curry would have been the 8 seed every year and would have lost to MUC every year.  The only difference is that the east has different 1 seeds every year.  MUC is the number #1 seed every year since 199?

[boobyhasgameyo]

I also don't see what you SJF guys are taking such offense to. It's not like you *almost* beat MUC or anything. I don't care what the score was at any point in the game; if your favorite NFL team lost by 12, you would never say we *almost* won.

I see what the North guys see in the East: a bunch of conferences in total chaos with no clear dominant team in any of them.... which could point to a lot of teams being good, but then look what happens when they play Mount: the same thing that happens against all the lower seeded teams.


Yanks: Show me a team that, like Wheaton, has won EVERY GAME except the ones they play against MUC. We don't have any.

Well Max since you weren't actually at the game I will just tell you it was well within reach.  Fisher had a botched snap going over the Punter's head into the endzone for a safety and then a blocked 30 yard fieldgoal in the 4th quarter that still would have brought Mount Union's lead to I think two in the 4th quarter.  They finally "put us away" with about 5 minutes to go in the 4th when they scored their last touchdown to take the lead to 12.  Besides I'm not saying Fisher had the game and choked, letting Mount Union win.  I am saying their idiotic statement that they were hiding something because they knew an Eastern team couldn't touch them is just that...idiotic.  You don't let a team stay within one score of you in the final minutes of a game when you can so easily distance yourself from them as some fans are claiming...one bad bounce of the football and then you lose.  

[Jonny Utah]

I also don't see what you SJF guys are taking such offense to. It's not like you *almost* beat MUC or anything. I don't care what the score was at any point in the game; if your favorite NFL team lost by 12, you would never say we *almost* won.

I see what the North guys see in the East: a bunch of conferences in total chaos with no clear dominant team in any of them.... which could point to a lot of teams being good, but then look what happens when they play Mount: the same thing that happens against all the lower seeded teams.


Yanks: Show me a team that, like Wheaton, has won EVERY GAME except the ones they play against MUC. We don't have any.

Well Max since you weren't actually at the game I will just tell you it was well within reach.  Fisher had a botched snap going over the Punter's head into the endzone for a safety and then a blocked 30 yard fieldgoal in the 4th quarter that still would have brought Mount Union's lead to I think two in the 4th quarter.  They finally "put us away" with about 5 minutes to go in the 4th when they scored their last touchdown to take the lead to 12.  Besides I'm not saying Fisher had the game and choked, letting Mount Union win.  I am saying their idiotic statement that they were hiding something because they knew an Eastern team couldn't touch them is just that...idiotic.  You don't let a team stay within one score of you in the final minutes of a game when you can so easily distance yourself from them as some fans are claiming...one bad bounce of the football and then you lose.  

That isn't what I heard.  I heard MUC wanted to save thier passing attack for the next game.  That game would have been 77-3 if MUC wanted to throw the ball.