East Region Playoff Discussion

[skunks_sidekick]

Well believe what you want (as everyone always does), but as someone who had direct access to LK after that game, I can tell you he DEFINITELY pulled back the reigns regarding the passing attack during that game.  Remember, Micheli wasn't the full-time starter then, but with the injury to the starter, he was getting all/most of the playing time. 

He really came into his own during the Stagg (MVP), and I can tell you that Mount was game-planning for just that coming out party in that game.  LK knew that Micheli could/would be the difference, as UWW would prepare a defense to stop Kmic after what happened the year before, and due to how he was running in the '06 play-off run.

I know you don't want to hear it, but it doesn't make it less so.  LK has always been much more conservative in play-off games wherever/whenever he can, as he has said many times you get no style points once it's the play-offs.  It's all about winning and moving on.

Skunks, with all due respect, I don't know what that means.  Do you mean he was saving a few formations or concepts for the Stagg Bowl like no huddle, spread, quick passing game etc?  Or do you mean they just gave Kmic the ball 80% of the time in that game and less in the next game?

LK (like most coaches) will run something until a team stops it.  If one team cannot stop the run, he ain't gonna pass a whole lot.

He's only hiding something if he has the luxury to do so.

JT...and I agree.  He saw early that he didn't need to pass, and he chose not to do so. 

That's not pulling back the reigns...that is going with what works until someone stops you.  So which one is it?  Can't have it both ways...

But I WANT it both ways!     I am sure if SJF had been able to stop Kmic, Mount would have thrown the ball to win the game if that's what was needed.  LK was happy that they didnt need to do so, which even more emphasized Mount's perceived lack of a passing game. 

[skunks_sidekick]

But hey you Mount Union posters have it made with that kind of logic.  If we blow you out in the playoffs (which happens a lot) well that is just Mount Union and we are dominant.  If it is a close game, well we were just playing conservative and the only thing that matters is advancing.  That's infallible right there.  

Works for me.....

[Frank Rossi]

Eh, not so much. The CCIW was 22-2 out of conference this year, that's going to bounce the OOWP part of the SOS even more than OAC's 7-3 would.

I also think MUC and UWW will find their ways to the top, and opposite sides of the bracket, by the time it is released. No matter what the criteria says, I can't see the committee getting in the way of No. 6. They are going to, as they should, let the streak be broken on the field.

Well, it won't be done through some bounce in SoS.  There's no way UMU catches Wheaton, for instance.  Either Wheaton needs to lose, or the Committee is going to propel my argument of trying to include some portion of subjective polling to choose teams in future years -- the SoS figures are not telling true stories about team strength in many cases (such as these).  Again, just because UMU plays in a 10-team conference, it's going to be locked very near 0.500 in both OWP and OOWP just based on pure statistics, every year.  Nine of the the teams' games are against each other, and to reiterate my old statement, "Someone's gotta lose those games."  So, the CCIW gets benefitted here for having less members?  Who did these teams play?  That's why these SoS numbers are getting pretty useless as we get to see their real effects more and more.

[Jonny Utah]

But hey you Mount Union posters have it made with that kind of logic.  If we blow you out in the playoffs (which happens a lot) well that is just Mount Union and we are dominant.  If it is a close game, well we were just playing conservative and the only thing that matters is advancing.  That's infallible right there.  

Works for me.....

Skunks you also must admit that a lot of teams do that, and it doesn't necessarily mean MUC would have won by more if they passed the ball.

Great teams add some new things in each week or every other week just to keep fresh and try to do something that the other team might not be able to stop.  That's why you watch film in the first place.  Just think though, what if on 2 of Kmic's runs, MUC decided to pass it and didn't score?  Maybe they would have lost the game?

[Frank Rossi]

Until someone/anyone/please anyone from the East makes it to the Stagg.......whether it's through Mount or not....we have NOTHING to talk about.  You can analyze, deliberate, and Frank Rossi it to death (Frank you have the most intelligent blah blah blah I have EVER read...oh wait..you are a lawyer..and no doubt a good one), but to claim discrimination, please just prove you belong there.

Thanks, skunks... I think

+k

[Yanks 99]

Until someone/anyone/please anyone from the East makes it to the Stagg.......whether it's through Mount or not....we have NOTHING to talk about.  You can analyze, deliberate, and Frank Rossi it to death (Frank you have the most intelligent blah blah blah I have EVER read...oh wait..you are a lawyer..and no doubt a good one), but to claim discrimination, please just prove you belong there.

I missed this...this comment is ridiculous...if MUC is always in the East, then there is pretty close to a zero chance that an Eastern Region team makes the Stagg Bowl...this pretty much goes for every other team in Division III as well considering it has been MUC and UWW in the finals for the past 5 years...

[Frank Rossi]

I find all the pissing & moaning in the East to be rather humorous.  The North dealt with for years.  Wheaton is 9-0 in the playoffs against anyone not named Mount Union.  0-6 against Mount.  Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy. 

What was Wheaton's record in the playoffs last year, out of curiosity?  Consistency would mean getting there, too, no?  So, none of us have stones to throw here, since I'd rather go 0-1 every year in the playoffs than miss them 2 out of the last 3 years.  That comparison's weight is very light, HS.

[Bombers798891]

I actually like the Wheaton example. He's right, there's no team in the East that's come even close to dominating everyone else. When you look at it that way, why shouldn't the NCAA bring Mount Union over? Basically, what they are saying is: You guys have shown us nothing that says that Mount wouldn't destroy you in the semi's, so we'll move them up a round and make sure two better teams don't get eliminated earlier so that someone like Albright or SJF can foregone conclusion-ly lose in a more important game. Any of that make sense?

I hear you...but HScoach said "Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy."  What unworldly level have they reached that is any different then the East teams?  Going as far as they can in the playoffs until they meet MUC?  We pretty much all do that...except UWW.

Yanks, as I've pointed out to Frank numerous times, we can't even navigate our own conferences unbeaten on a semi-regular basis, and even when we do, we often lose to mediocre OOC teams, so the idea that we're consistently at the level of teams like Wheaton is off base to me.

Seriously, the likely E8 qualifier lost to Rochester. It's entirely possible the E8 and LL Pool A teams have something like 7-8 losses between them. Yeah, maybe Delaware Valley got the shaft this season, but you know what? If they're on MUC's level, it's not like they won't get their shot.  

[Yanks 99]

I actually like the Wheaton example. He's right, there's no team in the East that's come even close to dominating everyone else. When you look at it that way, why shouldn't the NCAA bring Mount Union over? Basically, what they are saying is: You guys have shown us nothing that says that Mount wouldn't destroy you in the semi's, so we'll move them up a round and make sure two better teams don't get eliminated earlier so that someone like Albright or SJF can foregone conclusion-ly lose in a more important game. Any of that make sense?

I hear you...but HScoach said "Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy."  What unworldly level have they reached that is any different then the East teams?  Going as far as they can in the playoffs until they meet MUC?  We pretty much all do that...except UWW.

Yanks, as I've pointed out to Frank numerous times, we can't even navigate our own conferences unbeaten on a semi-regular basis, and even when we do, we often lose to mediocre OOC teams, so the idea that we're consistently at the level of teams like Wheaton is off base to me.

Seriously, the likely E8 qualifier lost to Rochester. It's entirely possible the E8 and LL Pool A teams have something like 7-8 losses between them. Yeah, maybe Delaware Valley got the shaft this season, but you know what? If they're on MUC's level, it's not like they won't get their shot.  

You aren't wrong Bombers...I just think Wheaton is a terrible example for his arguement...

[Jonny Utah]

I actually like the Wheaton example. He's right, there's no team in the East that's come even close to dominating everyone else. When you look at it that way, why shouldn't the NCAA bring Mount Union over? Basically, what they are saying is: You guys have shown us nothing that says that Mount wouldn't destroy you in the semi's, so we'll move them up a round and make sure two better teams don't get eliminated earlier so that someone like Albright or SJF can foregone conclusion-ly lose in a more important game. Any of that make sense?

I hear you...but HScoach said "Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy."  What unworldly level have they reached that is any different then the East teams?  Going as far as they can in the playoffs until they meet MUC?  We pretty much all do that...except UWW.

Yanks, as I've pointed out to Frank numerous times, we can't even navigate our own conferences unbeaten on a semi-regular basis, and even when we do, we often lose to mediocre OOC teams, so the idea that we're consistently at the level of teams like Wheaton is off base to me.

Seriously, the likely E8 qualifier lost to Rochester. It's entirely possible the E8 and LL Pool A teams have something like 7-8 losses between them. Yeah, maybe Delaware Valley got the shaft this season, but you know what? If they're on MUC's level, it's not like they won't get their shot. 

That is a great point.  An added disrespect card can help a team in these playoffs.

[Frank Rossi]

I actually like the Wheaton example. He's right, there's no team in the East that's come even close to dominating everyone else. When you look at it that way, why shouldn't the NCAA bring Mount Union over? Basically, what they are saying is: You guys have shown us nothing that says that Mount wouldn't destroy you in the semi's, so we'll move them up a round and make sure two better teams don't get eliminated earlier so that someone like Albright or SJF can foregone conclusion-ly lose in a more important game. Any of that make sense?

I hear you...but HScoach said "Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy."  What unworldly level have they reached that is any different then the East teams?  Going as far as they can in the playoffs until they meet MUC?  We pretty much all do that...except UWW.

Yanks, as I've pointed out to Frank numerous times, we can't even navigate our own conferences unbeaten on a semi-regular basis, and even when we do, we often lose to mediocre OOC teams, so the idea that we're consistently at the level of teams like Wheaton is off base to me.

Seriously, the likely E8 qualifier lost to Rochester. It's entirely possible the E8 and LL Pool A teams have something like 7-8 losses between them. Yeah, maybe Delaware Valley got the shaft this season, but you know what? If they're on MUC's level, it's not like they won't get their shot.  

So, as I said to Keith, ship the LL qualifier to UMU in Round 1.  That will even out the brackets in the loss column very well.  SLU is 488 miles away from UMU, so it would work.  Send Case Western Reserve into the East -- you know, the team "lowly" Rochester almost beat in Week 2 when it had its All-Everything RB still? 

[Frank Rossi]

I actually like the Wheaton example. He's right, there's no team in the East that's come even close to dominating everyone else. When you look at it that way, why shouldn't the NCAA bring Mount Union over? Basically, what they are saying is: You guys have shown us nothing that says that Mount wouldn't destroy you in the semi's, so we'll move them up a round and make sure two better teams don't get eliminated earlier so that someone like Albright or SJF can foregone conclusion-ly lose in a more important game. Any of that make sense?

I hear you...but HScoach said "Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy."  What unworldly level have they reached that is any different then the East teams?  Going as far as they can in the playoffs until they meet MUC?  We pretty much all do that...except UWW.

Yanks, as I've pointed out to Frank numerous times, we can't even navigate our own conferences unbeaten on a semi-regular basis, and even when we do, we often lose to mediocre OOC teams, so the idea that we're consistently at the level of teams like Wheaton is off base to me.

Seriously, the likely E8 qualifier lost to Rochester. It's entirely possible the E8 and LL Pool A teams have something like 7-8 losses between them. Yeah, maybe Delaware Valley got the shaft this season, but you know what? If they're on MUC's level, it's not like they won't get their shot. 

That is a great point.  An added disrespect card can help a team in these playoffs.

DelVal has earned another week of practice and another quality game in the playoffs.  It DOES matter longterm for these teams.  You're getting into a circular argument that you might want to be careful of -- you ask "WHY CAN'T THE EAST GET A STRONG TEAM ON PAPER ANYMORE?" and then claim that it doesn't matter what round the East's leader plays UMU?  It DOES matter.  Keith and Pat talk about the 15 extra weeks of practice and quality opponents UMU and UW-W have under their belt for their seniors?  How can any East team get to that point under current circumstances?  Like I said, the NCAA can't claim this is a national system until it aids teams in breaking down the regional structure THROUGHOUT the season by subsidizing 50 out-of-region games to aid in comparisons.  At a cost of $250,000 (which the NCAA would partially recoup in a gate recoupment agreement with the teams involved), this could be done and help create matchups we've never seen before.  This is an instance where the NCAA needs to put its money where its mouth is, or it needs to stop trying to break down the regional walls until the Semifinals. 

[Jonny Utah]

I actually like the Wheaton example. He's right, there's no team in the East that's come even close to dominating everyone else. When you look at it that way, why shouldn't the NCAA bring Mount Union over? Basically, what they are saying is: You guys have shown us nothing that says that Mount wouldn't destroy you in the semi's, so we'll move them up a round and make sure two better teams don't get eliminated earlier so that someone like Albright or SJF can foregone conclusion-ly lose in a more important game. Any of that make sense?

I hear you...but HScoach said "Until a consistent East team reaches the level of Wheaton, I have no sympathy."  What unworldly level have they reached that is any different then the East teams?  Going as far as they can in the playoffs until they meet MUC?  We pretty much all do that...except UWW.

Yanks, as I've pointed out to Frank numerous times, we can't even navigate our own conferences unbeaten on a semi-regular basis, and even when we do, we often lose to mediocre OOC teams, so the idea that we're consistently at the level of teams like Wheaton is off base to me.

Seriously, the likely E8 qualifier lost to Rochester. It's entirely possible the E8 and LL Pool A teams have something like 7-8 losses between them. Yeah, maybe Delaware Valley got the shaft this season, but you know what? If they're on MUC's level, it's not like they won't get their shot. 

That is a great point.  An added disrespect card can help a team in these playoffs.

DelVal has earned another week of practice and another quality game in the playoffs.  It DOES matter longterm for these teams.  You're getting into a circular argument that you might want to be careful of -- you ask "WHY CAN'T THE EAST GET A STRONG TEAM ON PAPER ANYMORE?" and then claim that it doesn't matter what round the East's leader plays UMU?  It DOES matter.  Keith and Pat talk about the 15 extra weeks of practice and quality opponents UMU and UW-W have under their belt for their seniors?  How can any East team get to that point under current circumstances?  Like I said, the NCAA can't claim this is a national system until it aids teams in breaking down the regional structure THROUGHOUT the season by subsidizing 50 out-of-region games to aid in comparisons.  At a cost of $250,000 (which the NCAA would partially recoup in a gate recoupment agreement with the teams involved), this could be done and help create matchups we've never seen before.  This is an instance where the NCAA needs to put its money where its mouth is, or it needs to stop trying to break down the regional walls until the Semifinals. 

It doesn't matter that much.  MUC and UWW would be having 15 weeks of practice no matter who they played, and thats a fact (unless they played each other in the first round, if they play in the semi-finals, then yea, its 14 extra weeks of practice, and we all get to see some more 55-3 stagg bowls)

[Frank Rossi]

It doesn't matter that much.  MUC and UWW would be having 15 weeks of practice no matter who they played, and thats a fact (unless they played each other in the first round, if they play in the semi-finals, then yea, its 14 extra weeks of practice, and we all get to see some more 55-3 stagg bowls)

If in a couple years, if DelVal's seniors have 12 extra weeks, it doesn't give them a chance?  A team eventually taking down the Mount isn't going to just magically appear, is it?  Let's ask the North guys -- HEY NORTH GUYS, WHEN IS YOUR MAGIC UNICORN APPEARING?

[Jonny Utah]

It doesn't matter that much.  MUC and UWW would be having 15 weeks of practice no matter who they played, and thats a fact (unless they played each other in the first round, if they play in the semi-finals, then yea, its 14 extra weeks of practice, and we all get to see some more 55-3 stagg bowls)

If in a couple years, if DelVal's seniors have 12 extra weeks, it doesn't give them a chance?  A team eventually taking down the Mount isn't going to just magically appear, is it?  Let's ask the North guys -- HEY NORTH GUYS, WHEN IS YOUR MAGIC UNICORN APPEARING?

Sure it gives them a chance.  But so does lifting 2 extra hours a week, or doing 3 extra sprints a day in the summer, or an extra phone call by an assistant coach to that kid he saw in the paper that might go to your school instead of your rival's school, etc, etc.

Just pointing out that these things matter, but not that much in the long run.