East Region Playoff Discussion

[lewdogg11]

'Framingham has played one non-NEFC team in 11 seasons, and that was against Norwich of the ECFC. It could be a shock to see how the rest of Division III plays football.'

How about some credit on the quote?  :-)

[Yanks 99]

'Framingham has played one non-NEFC team in 11 seasons, and that was against Norwich of the ECFC. It could be a shock to see how the rest of Division III plays football.'

How about some credit on the quote?  :-)

In all honesty...that was a great find.  Props LD...props...+k

[Yanks 99]

Ok, on the probablity of getting blasted just once again......

My son is a Sophmore at a MWC school now.  He was recruited by many East teams because he was an All New England player at a NEPSAC school.  So we hear from many of the teams being mentioned in this thread.  Ithaca, Springfield, and Salve were his top three besides the school in Chicago he ended up at.

The Salve Coach, Chesney, was very proud that he was going out of conferance and trying to establish themselves out of the NEFC norm.  He did that.  Now it's no fault of his that Union and Monclair decided to have off years.  He scheduled, or the school did, to play teams that had some history and were from more competitive conferances.  So last year, they go 1-1 against those teams and this year they beat both. 

So even mention that Salve is either moving up, or attempting to, and you get attacked.

Then teams that come from the same conference that end up winning move on and everyone yells at the division because they never play out of it.  There's no way anyone will ever gain your respect.

If Salve had won, and were moving on, you would all just be yelling they came from a weak conferance.

I'm not saying I agree that they will get 2 AQ's after the mix.  But until the NCAA fixes the problem, I just don't see what can be gained??

If this is supposed to be one division, which I don't think it is, than everyone has the same right to become champion to becomming champion.  I wish there would become a division 4 in addition to division 3.  There is just that big of a divide.

Just my thoughts.

Go ahead, blast away......

You need to read up a little bit, as almost everyone was actually on board with Salve as a legit playoff team if they ran the table in the NEFC.  As an example, here is a post that I made on September 10th of this year:

"I will say this...if Salve runs the table in the NEFC (and I really hope that they do), I will absolutely be the first to say that they would be a completely worthy recipient of an automatic bid this year.  Who knows where Union and Montclair State end up finishing...but I give kudos to Salve for not being the "normal" NEFC team (looking at you Curry, Endicott, and WNEC) and scheduling only NEFC and ECFC opponents.  If they (Salve) are 10-0 at the end of the year, with non-conference wins over two "good" opponents from much stronger leagues (LL and NJAC), than good for them...and they absolutely deserve their bid.

I said it last year when the Endicott folks were pissed about being left out on Selection Sunday.  You want a blue print for future success...look no further than what Salve is looking to accomplish with their out of conference scheduling."

We were all on board with Salve because there are the ONLY team in the NEFC to try to schedule competitive non-conference games.  I think people are pissed at the NEFC because they are getting a Pool C bid (in addition to their AQ champion), when anyone that follows this league even slightly knows how terrible the league is overall, and especially against better competition.  Like LD said...Framingham State hasn't played a non-NEFC team during the regular season for at least 12 years.  That is simply ridiculous...especially when everyone knows that in all likelihood Bridgewater (who got the Pool C bid) would absolutely get destroyed by almost every other fringe team that missed out on the Pool C bid.  How do I know that?  I will take the NEFC's 2-14 overall record in the NCAA's, where they are finally forced to play outside of their conference, as all the evidence I need.

[fisheralum91]

I think that the argument has been made and beaten pretty well.
To that point - Even the ppl at d3 football.com said that:

Framingham has played one non-NEFC team in 11 seasons, and that was against Norwich of the ECFC. It could be a shock to see how the rest of Division III plays football.

Mount Ida-One and out. Consider it payback for Mount Ida cancelling its game with Wesley in 2000.

If we see it and the guys that report it see it, then why did it happen.. I understand the aq---a little, but the other spot?

[Bombers798891]

Ok, on the probablity of getting blasted just once again......


The Salve Coach, Chesney, was very proud that he was going out of conferance and trying to establish themselves out of the NEFC norm.  He did that.  Now it's no fault of his that Union and Monclair decided to have off years.  He scheduled, or the school did, to play teams that had some history and were from more competitive conferances.  So last year, they go 1-1 against those teams and this year they beat both. 

So even mention that Salve is either moving up, or attempting to, and you get attacked.

Then teams that come from the same conference that end up winning move on and everyone yells at the division because they never play out of it. There's no way anyone will ever gain your respect.

I think that's categorically untrue. This is, in a sense, the same thing we went through on the E8 boards with Utica for years. For a lot of posters (myself included) you need to beat quality teams in order to gain respect. Yes, Salve has attempted to beef up their schedule, and no it isn't their fault Union and Montclair had off years. But it doesn't change the fact that they did have off years, and weren't very good. Yes, it sucks, but you beat the team that is on the field, not their reputation or past teams. I feel the posters on the boards are pretty consistent with these sorts of things.

[fulbakdad]

I say we give that other spot to Trinity (Conn).

JUST KIDDING!

Yanks,  I agree, you did say that.  But if you look back for the last two years, anytime I've even mentioned Salve, there has been a number of posters that have who won't even take a second to give them a serious look.  That's ok, I'm an underdog rooter, always have been.  I enjoy seeing a team come from behind, or from down in the rankings, and see them win much more than watching the same 5-10 teams fighting for the national championship every year.  How many teams are there in D3?  And how many even stand a chance of moving on to the second round of the playoffs?

I question myself everytime I come back here to post anything about the subject.  Again, my son doesn't play here.  He's out west.  And if you read what I've posted in our forum, you won't find me yelling that his school should be playing the in the playoffs, even though they were 8-2.  I am a realist.  They had a great year, but aren't at the level of the playoff teams from the stronger conferences (yet...).

So what's the answer to the problems?  How do you make it right for everyone?  I have said before and will again, start a D4.  And then you will find more teams competing in the right levels.  I'm sure that leagues like the NEFC, ECFC, etc would be happier competing in that level.  I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened yet.  There is just too much difference in the levels of play which limits the competitiveness of the whole playoffs.

I hope everyone has a great time watching your teams in the playoffs.  And I agree with a previous poster, every team in every conference except the NESCAC had the chance to be in the tournament.  If you had won your conference, you'd be in.  LFC included.

Just my thoughts.

[jknezek]

I enjoy seeing a team come from behind, or from down in the rankings, and see them win much more than watching the same 5-10 teams fighting for the national championship every year.  How many teams are there in D3?  And how many even stand a chance of moving on to the second round of the playoffs?

So what's the answer to the problems?  How do you make it right for everyone?  I have said before and will again, start a D4.  And then you will find more teams competing in the right levels. 

Cherry picking parts of your post here, but a couple things. There are around 230 teams in D3. In any given year, in my opinion, 4-8 are of the elite level that could get enough breaks to win the title. As for how many teams realistically stand a chance to move on to the second round? 16. That is always the answer. If you are asking what percentage of the D3 universe has a chance to break into the second round for the first time, or the first time in a while, it's pretty simple. There are 16 teams in the second round, of which 6-8 are going to blowout their first round opponent because they are on a different tier (the 4-6 with a chance to win the Stagg and 2 or so more on the cusp that can win given a couple lucky breaks). So, assuming the NCAA doesn't pair the top tier teams together for $$ purposes, there are 8-10 teams in any given year with a chance to win a first playoff game or an "a-typical" first round winner. Roughly 4-5% of the D3 universe.

As for the second part of your post, I am not opposed to a D4 in concept. HOWEVER, I cannot find a way to distinguish a D3. The difference between D1, FBS and FCS, D2, and D3 is in scholarship standards. You can't distinguish a D3 from a D4 by scholarship standards since D3 does not allow scholarships. So you will have to come up with a different distinguishing characteristic. What is it going to be? State versus private won't do it. UWW is a state school, UMU is private. Endowments? Pretty arbitrary. Enrollment? UMU's isn't very big. Self-determination? What if UMU decides to be D4? How would you exclude them other than by saying "you are too good."

So you need a requirement that will make a D4 different from a D3, and I'm not sure there is a valid one to work with. The only one I can come up with is dollars spent per student athlete. I would hate to be the book-keeper charged with keeping that in compliance.

[Pat Coleman]

'Framingham has played one non-NEFC team in 11 seasons, and that was against Norwich of the ECFC. It could be a shock to see how the rest of Division III plays football.'

How about some credit on the quote?  :-)

Sorry -- we were both working independently. I'm pretty in tune with the N/ECFC firewall from my previous takes on the subject, right?

[fulbakdad]

Think outside the box then.

How are there teams that play football in D3, and hockey in d2 or d1?

The scholorship point isn't true.  The teams in the Ivy League and I believe Patriot League are considered D1, but don't give athletic scholorships.  In D2, some teams give athletic scholorships and some don't.  I know I read that Bently doesn't, it may be true to other teams in the Northeast 10.....


And this is just off the cuff talking anyways.

[Pat Coleman]

fulbakdad -- those schools are grandfathered in and Division III closed that loophole about eight years ago.

[ExTartanPlayer]

So what's the answer to the problems?  How do you make it right for everyone?  I have said before and will again, start a D4.  And then you will find more teams competing in the right levels.  I'm sure that leagues like the NEFC, ECFC, etc would be happier competing in that level.  I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened yet.  There is just too much difference in the levels of play which limits the competitiveness of the whole playoffs.

I have a simpler solution than Division IV.  If the NEFC schools collectively prefer to compete solely against their peers, then just follow the NESCAC model: play one another in conference play, hold the conference championship game, and leave it at that.  Sure, maybe they'd never get any better, but that's just the point in this scenario anyway - they're not worried about competing outside the league, so why not just live in total isolation and play vs. the peer institutions?

I know that some folks on here bash the NESCAC, but I actually have no problem with their isolated attitude.  So they just want to play each other.  Fine by me.  If the NEFC and ECFC schools are not concerned with their level of competitiveness relative to the rest of Division III that is ALSO fine by me, but there's no need to start a separate Division IV.  Just play in isolation a la the NESCAC.

Anyone that wants "out" of said arrangement would be free to leave.  If competing in the playoffs is REALLY important to one or two of those schools, then THEY certainly might be able to wrangle their way into a partnership with one of the other East conferences.

[Yanks 99]

I say we give that other spot to Trinity (Conn).

JUST KIDDING!

Yanks,  I agree, you did say that.  But if you look back for the last two years, anytime I've even mentioned Salve, there has been a number of posters that have who won't even take a second to give them a serious look.  That's ok, I'm an underdog rooter, always have been.  I enjoy seeing a team come from behind, or from down in the rankings, and see them win much more than watching the same 5-10 teams fighting for the national championship every year.  How many teams are there in D3?  And how many even stand a chance of moving on to the second round of the playoffs?

I question myself everytime I come back here to post anything about the subject.  Again, my son doesn't play here.  He's out west.  And if you read what I've posted in our forum, you won't find me yelling that his school should be playing the in the playoffs, even though they were 8-2.  I am a realist.  They had a great year, but aren't at the level of the playoff teams from the stronger conferences (yet...).

So what's the answer to the problems?  How do you make it right for everyone?  I have said before and will again, start a D4.  And then you will find more teams competing in the right levels.  I'm sure that leagues like the NEFC, ECFC, etc would be happier competing in that level.   I'm actually surprised it hasn't happened yet.  There is just too much difference in the levels of play which limits the competitiveness of the whole playoffs.

I hope everyone has a great time watching your teams in the playoffs.  And I agree with a previous poster, every team in every conference except the NESCAC had the chance to be in the tournament.  If you had won your conference, you'd be in.  LFC included.

Just my thoughts.

I fundamentally disagree with the statement in bold above.  If that were true, the ECFC would not have been formed by bottom feeders 3 years ago in an effort to gain a AQ playoff spot, and the MASCAC would not have been formed...which is really just a bunch of NEFC teams leaving the NEFC to guarantee themselves an AQ in a few years.

The NEFC/ECFC/MASCAC clearly are happy competing at "this" level...and are striving to get more teams AQ bids without ever really having to leave their little areas in/around New England, or earn entry against better competition.  This was evident last year when the WNEC coach stated he was pretty much stunned that WNEC didn't get a "higher seed" in the tournament, or a home game for the first round of the tournament...which really means that he thought that his team was one of the best 16 teams in the field.  My guess was he was stunned a little bit more when Delaware Valley took them behind the woodshed to the tune of a 62-24 beat down.

[fulbakdad]

Pat, am I right about the D1 and D2 schools that don't offer scholorships?

And I agree with the poster that why not take the NESCAC model and compete local if they don't venture out.  I wish they would all do what Salve is doing and try.  It's why I liked Chesney.....

[jknezek]

Pat, am I right about the D1 and D2 schools that don't offer scholorships?

And I agree with the poster that why not take the NESCAC model and compete local if they don't venture out.  I wish they would all do what Salve is doing and try.  It's why I liked Chesney.....

Actually you are both right and wrong. The Ivy League and other "non-scholarship" schools in D1 and D2 CHOOSE not to offer scholarships. But they compete in a division that sets its boundaries MOSTLY by how they allow scholarships. There are some othe parameters, for example I believe D1 FBS has an attendance requirement for its membership. The primary difference between D1, D2, and D3, however, is that D1 permits X numbers of scholarships per sport (D1 FCS allows a variation of X), D2 permits Y, and D3 permits 0. There is no requirement that you actually USE the scholarships you are allowed to participate in that Division.

[lewdogg11]

'Framingham has played one non-NEFC team in 11 seasons, and that was against Norwich of the ECFC. It could be a shock to see how the rest of Division III plays football.'

How about some credit on the quote?  :-)

Sorry -- we were both working independently. I'm pretty in tune with the N/ECFC firewall from my previous takes on the subject, right?

No, i'm pretty sure you just scour the boards and plagiarize my stuff.  :-)