East Region Playoff Discussion

[Bombers798891]

I fundamentally disagree with the statement in bold above.  If that were true, the ECFC would not have been formed by bottom feeders 3 years ago in an effort to gain a AQ playoff spot, and the MASCAC would not have been formed...which is really just a bunch of NEFC teams leaving the NEFC to guarantee themselves an AQ in a few years.

The NEFC/ECFC/MASCAC clearly are happy competing at "this" level...and are striving to get more teams AQ bids without ever really having to leave their little areas in/around New England, or earn entry against better competition.

This. All of this. They have their cake, eat it too, and wonder why people are critical. They get to play on the national stage without having to prove themselves nationally. Look at a team like Huntington. They went 0-7 in 2003, playing teams like Wabash and Wittenberg. By 2006, they were playing Wesley and Trinity, and they even got on a plane and flew up to Ithaca. I remember talking to a friend on the team before that game, and he said they were not taking Huntington lightly because they would play anyone, anywhere, and did not care. (Of course, Ithaca won handily, because they were better, but still)

Yes, Huntington was an independent, but it's the attitude. Rather than do the ECFC model, which was gather up a bunch of terrible teams and say "We're a conference! Respect our teams!" or go fully insular and just play teams nearby, they went out and took on all comers.

[Pat Coleman]

'Framingham has played one non-NEFC team in 11 seasons, and that was against Norwich of the ECFC. It could be a shock to see how the rest of Division III plays football.'

How about some credit on the quote?  :-)

Sorry -- we were both working independently. I'm pretty in tune with the N/ECFC firewall from my previous takes on the subject, right?

No, i'm pretty sure you just scour the boards and plagiarize my stuff.  :-)

I'll have to go take this line out of the predictions in Around the Nation, then.

Hobart got boned.

[lewdogg11]

'Framingham has played one non-NEFC team in 11 seasons, and that was against Norwich of the ECFC. It could be a shock to see how the rest of Division III plays football.'

How about some credit on the quote?  :-)

Sorry -- we were both working independently. I'm pretty in tune with the N/ECFC firewall from my previous takes on the subject, right?

No, i'm pretty sure you just scour the boards and plagiarize my stuff.  :-)

I'll have to go take this line out of the predictions in Around the Nation, then.

Hobart got boned.

It's so true.

[bman]

'Framingham has played one non-NEFC team in 11 seasons, and that was against Norwich of the ECFC. It could be a shock to see how the rest of Division III plays football.'

How about some credit on the quote?  :-)

Sorry -- we were both working independently. I'm pretty in tune with the N/ECFC firewall from my previous takes on the subject, right?

No, i'm pretty sure you just scour the boards and plagiarize my stuff.  :-)

I'll have to go take this line out of the predictions in Around the Nation, then.

Hobart got boned.

It's so true.

A LewDogg vs. Pat showdown....this is MUCH more interesting than the merits of creating D4, and NEFC isolationism...!

[lewdogg11]

I just was saying Hobart DID get boned.  It's so true. 

[jknezek]

I just was saying Hobart DID get boned.  It's so true.

Kind of interested in how Hobart got boned. They are the presumed 2 seed in the bracket. So in order to be boned, they either had to deserve to be a 1, or needed a "weaker" 7 seed to face, right?

All of the 1s are undefeated. So a secondary criteria deciding between undefeated teams is past playoff experience. Hobart lost in the first round last year, each of the other 1 seeds progressed at least one round.

That leaves the 2s. Of the 4 presumed 2s, Oshkosh and Widener are the other undefeated. Oshkosh faces 8-2 St. Scholastica, not a 500 mile opponent for Hobart. Widener faces Bridgewater State, 9-1. Widener does have some history in the NCAAs, but a lot of it is not recent. Presumably facing a 9-1 team should be harder than facing 8-2 W&L, especially considering the distance W&L is travelling (460 miles). It's easy to see why having Hobart face W&L should be seen as an advantage. That just leaves Wesley.

Obviously Wesley is a 9-1 team. The loss was to UMHB, by 7 points. On the basis of record, you could argue Hobart should face Mount Ida, 8-2, assuming Mount Ida is weaker than W&L. SOS would show Mount Ida at an SOS of 192, W&L at 47. So presumably the "boning" is here? While I know past playoff performance isn't supposed to be used when determining between two teams that aren't undefeated, it may have been hard to look past Hobarts' loss to Wesley last year, especially when considering Wesley's loss was to one of the number 1 seeds.

The only thing I'll point out as mitigating is who heads the brackets. We can argue about the order of the top 4 all day long, but I'm thinking that either Linfield or St Thomas is the "weakest" 1 seed, my thought is that it is St. Thomas. So from that perspective, Hobart has an easier road than some of the other 2s.

That last point is that Widener may not be the 2. I suppose it could be Johns Hopkins (9-1) facing W&J (8-2). But would you really rather be facing W&J as opposed to W&L? W&J's two losses were an incredibly close loss to SJF, who they played straight up if not better than the whole game except on the final scoreboard, and a blowout loss a couple days after their team captain was murdered. Not sure I'd want to trade W&L for W&J.

So really, the big complaint is that Hobart got W&L, coming from a league that is 0-7 in recent playoff attempts and 0-2 by wide margins themselves, or Mount Ida.

Hardly seems like a "boning". Maybe a small slight...

[lewdogg11]

Well, overall, I think Hobart has the more middle of the order bracket which some may see as 'not getting boned'.  There isn't the Mt Union, Linfield, MHB 'beast' in their bracket.  So technically, they might have a better chance to getting to the last 4.  But they also have a better chance of losing in the first 2.

There are no 'easy' games at all.  Cortland got one.  Wesley got one.  Widener got one.  Of all of the 2 seeds, Hobart got a tougher first round draw.  Widener really made out like a bandit.  They get a 'bye' in the first round, and then they play a very beatable Rowan or Salisbury in Round 2.  I would have like to see Hobart with that draw.  Cortland really got a gift because they at least get to win a game.  But Wesley in Rd 2 will be a tough one.

Hobart SHOULD win at least 2 games, but I think any of these teams could knock them off.  I don't think Mt. Ida, Bridgewater, or Framingham has a chance to win.  W&L has a fighting chance. 

[dlippiel]

Let's put it this way, boned or not dlip would have preferred the Mount Ida matchup instead of  W&L but as long ad Bart wins dlip will be as happy as a fat pig in a big old pile of shiznit!

[ITH radio]

One can certainly argue Hobart got shafted last year (albeit the 8 game schedule and RPI loss were equal culprits) but ultimately playing Wesley helped the program on a number of levels (and at least one of the Hobart coaches felt they should have beat Wesley but w/o a FG kicker they had to go for it 3x in on the 4th and goals) this season.

Also given Hobart's main weakness is the secondary, I'd almost be more nervous playing a QB like Drosendahl than I am an option team that passes for less than 70 YPG.  The Statesmen have shown they can stop the option (see holding SC to 155 rush yards) and the fact W&L (who is a 2 loss team btw) has to travel 460-70 miles the Friday before is a fairly advantageous seeding.  W&L also gives up a lot of yards on defense (almost 370 YPG), especially thru the air (around 210 YPG) which is advantage Hobart even if Olney starts.

To LD's point though, Widener, etc got a better early draws and I am not even 100% certain the Pride will make it out of Rd 2 (have a weird feeling the MAC is having a down year, but maybe I'll be proved wrong since both Rowan and SU don't seem as strong this season either?).

STU is elite for sure but they are not "UMU or UMHB good" (yet) based on what I've heard / read.  Can't complain too much this season in the bracketing.  If things fall right for Hobart they could have a great run.

[jknezek]

Interesting. But I think this may be a case of how much you know about others opponents. I'm a W&L alum and I really don't see much hope here for the Generals. Or at least, I don't see much more hope for W&L versus Hobart than I see for the other 7 seeds.

But I'm not as familiar with the NEFC/ECFC teams as you are. Hobart MAY have the hardest 7 seed, as I really thought W&L was a 6 with a very long outside shot at a 5 (based on SOS), but I don't think they got "boned" in any serious sense.

I will admit that Hobart probably should have gotten Mount Ida and Wesley probably should have had the hardest 7 game just based on being the only 2 with a loss. Personally, I think the committee probaby felt sending 8-2 W&L 460 miles made for an easier opponent than 9-1 Bridgewater would have been.

I'm less interested in the next couple teams as it becomes a real toss-up whether Coe, Heidelberg, Elmhurst and Wittenberg are any stronger than the 3-6 teams in the other brackets. Some probably are, some probably aren't. Not enough data to make that sweeping a pronouncement.

But as far as the first round goes, it's not like the ODAC has had a team get out of the first round since Bridgewater College in 2005.

[ITH radio]

JK -

I think the reasoning here is the east region fans believe W&L would easily beat most, if not all, NEFC/ECFC teams; especially since a team like Springfield (which runs a similar offense and ranks 2nd in the nation behind W&L in rushing) routinely beats teams from this conference (one exception being this year with Bridgewater State coming back to beat SC 21-17 early in the season when SC lost their starting QB).

[pg04]

JK -

I think the reasoning here is the east region fans believe W&L would easily beat most, if not all NEFC/ECFC teams, especially since a team like Springfield (which runs a similar offense and ranks 2nd in the nation behind W&L in rushing) routinely beats teams from this conference (one exception being this year with Bridgewater coming back to beat SC 21-17 early in the season when SC lost their starting QB).

Although this may be true, there really isn't much to say that W&L won't be an easier opponent than the other teams mentioned. Sure the NEFC has sucked but so has the ODAC in the last 7 years. I think the argument is a little bit weak (not a full boning).

[jknezek]

JK -

I think the reasoning here is the east region fans believe W&L would easily beat most, if not all NEFC/ECFC teams, especially since a team like Springfield (which runs a similar offense and ranks 2nd in the nation behind W&L in rushing) routinely beats teams from this conference (one exception being this year with Bridgewater coming back to beat SC 21-17 early in the season when SC lost their starting QB).

Yeah. And that's what I pointed to with knowing your opponents' opponents better than the one coming up from the south. There just isn't a good way to prove that. As I said, it's not like the ODAC has done any better than anyone else in the playoffs. It's hard to do worse than 0-7...

It is what it is. W&L is a 7, going to an undefeated Hobart team that has handled the option well several times this year. Personally I think it's a very legitimate matchup for the 2 team. Hobart should be well favored and I think they are.

If the "boning" is because they would have been a greater favorite against Mount Ida... well, not so much a boning as a minor slight. As someone else previously pointed out.

Nice to have gotten some talk in about the game and I did appreciate all the answers to my inquiry.

[jknezek]

JK -

I think the reasoning here is the east region fans believe W&L would easily beat most, if not all NEFC/ECFC teams, especially since a team like Springfield (which runs a similar offense and ranks 2nd in the nation behind W&L in rushing) routinely beats teams from this conference (one exception being this year with Bridgewater coming back to beat SC 21-17 early in the season when SC lost their starting QB).

Although this may be true, there really isn't much to say that W&L won't be an easier opponent than the other teams mentioned. Sure the NEFC has sucked but so has the ODAC in the last 7 years. I think the argument is a little bit weak (not a full boning).

dang. PG just beat me to it!

[pg04]

JK -

I think the reasoning here is the east region fans believe W&L would easily beat most, if not all NEFC/ECFC teams, especially since a team like Springfield (which runs a similar offense and ranks 2nd in the nation behind W&L in rushing) routinely beats teams from this conference (one exception being this year with Bridgewater coming back to beat SC 21-17 early in the season when SC lost their starting QB).

Although this may be true, there really isn't much to say that W&L won't be an easier opponent than the other teams mentioned. Sure the NEFC has sucked but so has the ODAC in the last 7 years. I think the argument is a little bit weak (not a full boning).

dang. PG just beat me to it!

You explained it more thoroughly than I did though, but I agree with you (obviously). I guess we'll see how much of a challenge Hobart receives.