East Region Playoff Discussion

[MRMIKESMITH]

It as a great game by two great teams. If you use transverse properties from how the season went, it would make since that this game was going to be close. RPI continue to defy odds. Good coaching by them. Games aren't always won on paper.

[D O.C.]

Always next year East.

[wesleydad]

Always next year East.

Not likely.  The east is far from ready to take the next step up the ladder to national prominence.  The top teams in the east are good, but most are second or third place good in the other top conferences.  I am not sure what the reason is, but if you follow the national scene you can easily see that the east's best would not compete with the top teams around the nation.  Brockport and Frostburg being ranked as high as they were should mean they run over the rest of the bracket to meet in the quarters, but instead Frostburg gets run over by Hopkins and Brockport gets shut down by an RPI team that gave up more than 13 points to 8 teams, including 14 to Husson.  Not taking anything away from RPI, but if you are the 4th ranked team in the country you don't lose that game.  As a region the east is probably the most competitive week in and week out, but once the season turns to a national scale the east is by far the weakest on a national level.

[unionpalooza]

Always next year East.

Not likely.  The east is far from ready to take the next step up the ladder to national prominence.  The top teams in the east are good, but most are second or third place good in the other top conferences.  I am not sure what the reason is, but if you follow the national scene you can easily see that the east's best would not compete with the top teams around the nation.  Brockport and Frostburg being ranked as high as they were should mean they run over the rest of the bracket to meet in the quarters, but instead Frostburg gets run over by Hopkins and Brockport gets shut down by an RPI team that gave up more than 13 points to 8 teams, including 14 to Husson.  Not taking anything away from RPI, but if you are the 4th ranked team in the country you don't lose that game.  As a region the east is probably the most competitive week in and week out, but once the season turns to a national scale the east is by far the weakest on a national level.

I really don't think of the competition problem as regional in nature at all.  Since 2005, only 5 programs have played in the Stagg Bowl.  21 of 26 appearances have been made by Mt Union or UWW.  The South has only made two trips.  So it's much more a story about the dominance of a tiny handful of programs that of one or more regions over another.  Of course, that just reflects the fact that, at a national levle, D3 is now almost entirely dysfunctional from a structural competition perspective.  But in the absence of the greater leveler - scholarships - there is nothing to be done on that front.  Frankly, I am just happy that, unlike the North or West, the East is a vibrant competitive region, with great diversity from year to year in terms of top teams in the region.

[Ralph Turner]

...and the sad thing for the East is that Frostburg St is leaving...

It hurt the South Region when we lost the ACFC schools.

[gordonmann]

Frostburg was a good, but not dominant, program. As Wesley Dad mentions, the East has plenty of those. The NJAC takes a small hit in terms of depth but there were plenty of teams at Frostburg's level.

[repete]

Always next year East.

Not likely.  The east is far from ready to take the next step up the ladder to national prominence.  The top teams in the east are good, but most are second or third place good in the other top conferences.  I am not sure what the reason is, but if you follow the national scene you can easily see that the east's best would not compete with the top teams around the nation.  Brockport and Frostburg being ranked as high as they were should mean they run over the rest of the bracket to meet in the quarters, but instead Frostburg gets run over by Hopkins and Brockport gets shut down by an RPI team that gave up more than 13 points to 8 teams, including 14 to Husson.  Not taking anything away from RPI, but if you are the 4th ranked team in the country you don't lose that game.  As a region the east is probably the most competitive week in and week out, but once the season turns to a national scale the east is by far the weakest on a national level.

I really don't think of the competition problem as regional in nature at all. Since 2005, only 5 programs have played in the Stagg Bowl.  21 of 26 appearances have been made by Mt Union or UWW.  The South has only made two trips.  So it's much more a story about the dominance of a tiny handful of programs that of one or more regions over another.  Of course, that just reflects the fact that, at a national levle, D3 is now almost entirely dysfunctional from a structural competition perspective.  But in the absence of the greater leveler - scholarships - there is nothing to be done on that front.  Frankly, I am just happy that, unlike the North or West, the East is a vibrant competitive region, with great diversity from year to year in terms of top teams in the region.

That's one way of looking at it ... but also, since the last East Stagg champ, five different West programs have won the walnut and bronze.

[unionpalooza]

Always next year East.

Not likely.  The east is far from ready to take the next step up the ladder to national prominence.  The top teams in the east are good, but most are second or third place good in the other top conferences.  I am not sure what the reason is, but if you follow the national scene you can easily see that the east's best would not compete with the top teams around the nation.  Brockport and Frostburg being ranked as high as they were should mean they run over the rest of the bracket to meet in the quarters, but instead Frostburg gets run over by Hopkins and Brockport gets shut down by an RPI team that gave up more than 13 points to 8 teams, including 14 to Husson.  Not taking anything away from RPI, but if you are the 4th ranked team in the country you don't lose that game.  As a region the east is probably the most competitive week in and week out, but once the season turns to a national scale the east is by far the weakest on a national level.

I really don't think of the competition problem as regional in nature at all. Since 2005, only 5 programs have played in the Stagg Bowl.  21 of 26 appearances have been made by Mt Union or UWW.  The South has only made two trips.  So it's much more a story about the dominance of a tiny handful of programs that of one or more regions over another.  Of course, that just reflects the fact that, at a national levle, D3 is now almost entirely dysfunctional from a structural competition perspective.  But in the absence of the greater leveler - scholarships - there is nothing to be done on that front.  Frankly, I am just happy that, unlike the North or West, the East is a vibrant competitive region, with great diversity from year to year in terms of top teams in the region.

That's one way of looking at it ... but also, since the last East Stagg champ, five different West programs have won the walnut and bronze.

That is true.  But Rowan was on the other side of nearly half of those games, so I don't really feel like the East was particularly inferior.

I feel like somewhere there should be a D3 student athlete who runs a deep statistical analysis of what's associated with high level success in D3 football and turns it in as his thesis.  For example, for fun, I decided to check and see what was the last program with a sub-65% acceptance rate to win a Stagg Bowl.  (Thanks to MUC and UWW, that's not much work.)  Turns out to be Augustana in the 80s, clocking in at a stingy 51.6%.  70-80% is definitely the sweet spot.  (Also, I had always thought St. John's was some august academic Midwest institution, but turns out they had the highest acceptance rate of any champ since the 80s (when I stopped checking).  Who knew.)

[Pat Coleman]

St. John's was my safety school.

[unionpalooza]

St. John's was my safety school.

It does seem like a really lovely place...

And I should add, of course, that accceptance rates only tell part of the story.  For example, St. John's clocks in 85%, but shows an average SAT in the 1000s.  Wesley clocks in at 60%, but the average SAT is in the 800s.  (Which makes you wonder:  who are all those people NOT getting in there?)

[repete]

Indeed, a quick look at USN&WR comparison finds UMU at 81 percent, SJU at 80  . . . . and Catholic at 83.

[Pat Coleman]

Indeed, a quick look at USN&WR comparison finds UMU at 81 percent, SJU at 80  . . . . and Catholic at 83.

No idea what those numbers were 25-plus years ago, but yep. Catholic gave me a full ride and John shook his head and said something about monks when I told him what kind of offer SJU made me.

[repete]

St. John's was my safety school.

It does seem like a really lovely place...

And I should add, of course, that accceptance rates only tell part of the story.  For example, St. John's clocks in 85%, but shows an average SAT in the 1000s.  Wesley clocks in at 60%, but the average SAT is in the 800s.  (Which makes you wonder:  who are all those people NOT getting in there?)

Which, as you noted, is why acceptance rates are only part of the the formula in what makes a good school. And from a perspective of decades out of school, it's easy to see that a good school for one guy might not be the best for another.

For SJU, I'd say that getting students to a rural, all-male campus is much tougher these days than when I was looking at colleges in the '70s. I chose between SJU and Mac and was glad I did. (And, over the years, I've had to help out a family member, who was a Carleton guy ....). 

When I was doing grad work, I found myself between two feuding groups from two strong West Coast universities. The fight: the private school, at least at that time, was more selective, but had a reputation that once accepted, you'd make it through, while the public university was easier to get into, but harder to survive.

Bottom line, though, academic arguments on these boards get a bit tiresome.

[Pat Coleman]

What the "study" above didn't say was where the 65% acceptance rate falls among D-III schools.

[repete]

Indeed, Pat. Also, the metric is just a bad one in general. SJU had fewer than 1,500 guys apply last season, but the quality of those applicants was academically solid. Data without context is dangerous.