East Region Playoff Discussion

[theoriginalupstate]

lew go to the E8pp and reed E8's assessment of the game... it is one of the better football pots I have ever read

I agree, one of the best pots ive ever read on here....

[superman57]

sorry I'm trying to work and read the boards at the same time

[Jonny Utah]

East Bracket
1. Cortland State
2. Ithaca (C)
3. Montclair State (C)
4. Hobart
5. Plymouth State
6. Albright
7. Hampden-Sydney (C)
8. St. John Fisher
Clearly, the season doesn't end today, but there are so many moving parts in this region that it seemed better just to take a snapshot. If St. John Fisher loses to Alfred ... If Maine Maritime wins the NEFC ... If the Cortaca Jug game doesn't end in an improbable tie ... then this would change. But right now we need a team to fill out this bracket and after plugging a few teams in (tried Case Western Reserve, tried Wesley) we ended up with Hampden-Sydney. The South makes it necessary.


East Region Projection from the D3 guys....

If SJF gets in, BIG IF, I can say that I don;t mind traveling to Cortland for the first round...

this makes no sense. If Ithaca loses to Cortland, this still has them the 2nd seed w/ 2 losses? No way

Dont shoot the messenger...

Its clear that there are so many scenarios that they just did a "if the playoffs started today" type of deal...

Yea that list doesnt make sense to me either for the IC/Cortland ranking...

['gro]

Playoff Predictions - 60% of the time, they work every time.


EDIT, 12 noon on the dot... time for that bologna sammich and juicebox

[vttanker]

Im not saying they go out of their way to "screw" the east bringing a better team in im saying make the brackets even in terms of strength.  It doesnt make sense to have 3/4 undefeated teams in one region only to have another region have their top 3 seeds possess 2 losses (combined)...

I would tend to disagree with this statement only because it doesn't speak to the question about parity.  A team in any conference might have a loss because all the teams are more equivalent in capability.  And if more teams in one region are going undeated then there are other teams in that same region that are losing more games.  I'd much rather see conferences and regions where the title is up for grab each year.

Separately I think it's a mistake for the NCAA to try to engineer the final four teams.  When they move teams from one region to another that is all they're trying to do.  Win your conference, get the AQ and stay in your region.  The Pool B and C teams should also only come from the region they belong to.

Imagine this scenario which we see happen.  A team moves from North to East, wins the East.  So we wonder, who is the best team in the East.  That just ain't right.

Anytime a sport tries to engineer a championship it's a disaster.  Division I Football BCS for example.  What a nightmare that is.  NASCAR Race for the Cup - there's a fan favorite.  How would you like to be Chicago, St. Louis, Columbus, and Nashville and be in the same division with the Detroit Redwings?  You don't make the playoffs and you don't get extra credit for playing the best team in the league.  Finishing second to the Redwings out to be worth something (BTW I'm a Pittsburgh Penguin fan, and yes the better team won last year).

Engineered playoffs are just wrong.

[Bombers798891]

East Bracket
1. Cortland State
2. Ithaca (C)
3. Montclair State (C)
4. Hobart
5. Plymouth State
6. Albright
7. Hampden-Sydney (C)
8. St. John Fisher
Clearly, the season doesn't end today, but there are so many moving parts in this region that it seemed better just to take a snapshot. If St. John Fisher loses to Alfred ... If Maine Maritime wins the NEFC ... If the Cortaca Jug game doesn't end in an improbable tie ... then this would change. But right now we need a team to fill out this bracket and after plugging a few teams in (tried Case Western Reserve, tried Wesley) we ended up with Hampden-Sydney. The South makes it necessary.


East Region Projection from the D3 guys....

If SJF gets in, BIG IF, I can say that I don;t mind traveling to Cortland for the first round...

this makes no sense. If Ithaca loses to Cortland, this still has them the 2nd seed w/ 2 losses? No way

Dont shoot the messenger...

Its clear that there are so many scenarios that they just did a "if the playoffs started today" type of deal...

Yea that list doesnt make sense to me either for the IC/Cortland ranking...

Ok, see, they have Fisher at 8, which clearly means that they're beating Alfred in this scenario, which makes IC a Pool C team even if they were to beat Cortland--which also would appear to be the case. It would seem that the East guys think Cortland would still be considered the best team in the region despite a loss

[labart96]

I think IC's #2 seeding has less to do with whether or not they have 2 losses, but the NCAA avoiding an early rematch of Cortaca.

Assuming the bracket falls into place like they predicted you'd have the following match ups:

Round 1:
1.  Cortland
8.  SJF

4.  Hobart
5.  PSU

3.  Montclair
6.  Albright

7.  H-S
2.  Ithaca

An IC-Cortland rematch (as is a Montclair-Cortland rematch) only happens if IC (or MSU) advances to the Regional Final (and assuming that Cortland does as well).

[Bombers798891]

I think IC's #2 seeding has less to do with whether or not they have 2 losses, but the NCAA avoiding an early rematch of Cortaca.

Assuming the bracket falls into place like they predicted you'd have the following match ups:

Round 1:
1.  Cortland
8.  SJF

4.  Hobart
5.  PSU

3.  Montclair
6.  Albright

7.  H-S
2.  Ithaca

An IC-Cortland rematch (as is a Montclair-Cortland rematch) only happens if IC (or MSU) advances to the Regional Final (and assuming that Cortland does as well).

What? Ithaca wouldn't even make the playoffs with two losses as a Pool C team. The only way they can be #2 is if they beat Cortland State. And if IC does beat Cortland, I'd have a hard time leaving Cortland the higher seed just to avoid a matchup in the 2nd round

[labart96]

you could be right, but a loss - unless it's in a total blow out - to Cortland #1 in region, #7 in nation, shouldn't negatively affect IC #2 in region, #17 in nation too much.

i could still see IC getting in as a pool c with 2 losses to 2 pool A teams given their strong OWP/OOWP and other factors (ie, IC got in with 2 losses last season, etc)

[Bombers798891]

you could be right, but a loss - unless it's in a total blow out - to Cortland #1 in region, #7 in nation, shouldn't negatively affect IC #2 in region, #17 in nation too much.

i could still see IC getting in as a pool c with 2 losses to 2 pool A teams given their strong OWP/OOWP and other factors (ie, IC got in with 2 losses last season, etc)

I applaud the enthusiasm, but there are 9 other teams with one loss in D-III right now. You'd need at least four of those teams to lose for Ithaca to make it. I've read nothing at all on this site from anyone that suggests a 2-loss team is even in the playoffs, let alone hosting two games

[theoriginalupstate]

you could be right, but a loss - unless it's in a total blow out - to Cortland #1 in region, #7 in nation, shouldn't negatively affect IC #2 in region, #17 in nation too much.

i could still see IC getting in as a pool c with 2 losses to 2 pool A teams given their strong OWP/OOWP and other factors (ie, IC got in with 2 losses last season, etc)

I applaud the enthusiasm, but there are 9 other teams with one loss in D-III right now. You'd need at least four of those teams to lose for Ithaca to make it. I've read nothing at all on this site from anyone that suggests a 2-loss team is even in the playoffs, let alone hosting two games

Exactly, a 2 loss team is not getting a pool C this year...

Its win and in or lose and pray for IC...

[Ralph Turner]

Im not saying they go out of their way to "screw" the east bringing a better team in im saying make the brackets even in terms of strength.  It doesnt make sense to have 3/4 undefeated teams in one region only to have another region have their top 3 seeds possess 2 losses (combined)...

I would tend to disagree with this statement only because it doesn't speak to the question about parity.  A team in any conference might have a loss because all the teams are more equivalent in capability.  And if more teams in one region are going undeated then there are other teams in that same region that are losing more games.  I'd much rather see conferences and regions where the title is up for grab each year.

Separately I think it's a mistake for the NCAA to try to engineer the final four teams.  When they move teams from one region to another that is all they're trying to do.  Win your conference, get the AQ and stay in your region.  The Pool B and C teams should also only come from the region they belong to.

Imagine this scenario which we see happen.  A team moves from North to East, wins the East.  So we wonder, who is the best team in the East.  That just ain't right.

Anytime a sport tries to engineer a championship it's a disaster.  Division I Football BCS for example.  What a nightmare that is.  NASCAR Race for the Cup - there's a fan favorite.  How would you like to be Chicago, St. Louis, Columbus, and Nashville and be in the same division with the Detroit Redwings?  You don't make the playoffs and you don't get extra credit for playing the best team in the league.  Finishing second to the Redwings out to be worth something (BTW I'm a Pittsburgh Penguin fan, and yes the better team won last year).

Engineered playoffs are just wrong.

Good thoughts, but I respectfully disagree.   

Pool C bids are engineered for the playoffs.  The NCAA has determined that they will pay for one playoff bid for every 6.5 participants (in most sports.  The playoff ratio is slightly higher in other sports.)

Almost every fan on this site thinks that the expansion from 3 Pool C bids to 6 Pool C bids in 2005 was a big improvement.  Why do we have Pool C bids?  IMHO, to improve the playoffs.

In 2002, John Carroll (OAC) won the East as the #7 seed!  Parity?  That suggests that the East has parity, but wouldn't ever make the playoffs in the North  Region!  2002 Bracket

IN 2004 Pool C Mary Hardin-Baylor (ASC) made it to the Stagg Bowl back when there were only 3 Pool C bids.  D3football.com's (Week #11 Poll) #8 UMHB went on the road and beat   #7 Trinity by 29, #3 HSU by 14, #5 W&J by 36 and #1 Mount Union by 3 in Alliance.  They lost to Elliott's #2 Linfield in the Stagg, 21-28.

(Please remember that D3football.com Top 25 is an opinion of 25 knowledgeable SID's Coaches and Media of the best teams in the country.  The NCAA Selection process is the association's process to determine all playoff contenders.)

Let's get the best teams in the country as far apart as we can for as long as we can in the playoffs.  Moving a really top seed to a demonstrably weaker region is fine with me.

[Bombers798891]

Im not saying they go out of their way to "screw" the east bringing a better team in im saying make the brackets even in terms of strength.  It doesnt make sense to have 3/4 undefeated teams in one region only to have another region have their top 3 seeds possess 2 losses (combined)...

I would tend to disagree with this statement only because it doesn't speak to the question about parity.  A team in any conference might have a loss because all the teams are more equivalent in capability.  And if more teams in one region are going undeated then there are other teams in that same region that are losing more games.  I'd much rather see conferences and regions where the title is up for grab each year.

Separately I think it's a mistake for the NCAA to try to engineer the final four teams.  When they move teams from one region to another that is all they're trying to do.  Win your conference, get the AQ and stay in your region.  The Pool B and C teams should also only come from the region they belong to.

Imagine this scenario which we see happen.  A team moves from North to East, wins the East.  So we wonder, who is the best team in the East.  That just ain't right.

Anytime a sport tries to engineer a championship it's a disaster.  Division I Football BCS for example.  What a nightmare that is.  NASCAR Race for the Cup - there's a fan favorite.  How would you like to be Chicago, St. Louis, Columbus, and Nashville and be in the same division with the Detroit Redwings?  You don't make the playoffs and you don't get extra credit for playing the best team in the league.  Finishing second to the Redwings out to be worth something (BTW I'm a Pittsburgh Penguin fan, and yes the better team won last year).

Engineered playoffs are just wrong.

Good thoughts, but I respectfully disagree.   

Pool C bids are engineered for the playoffs.  The NCAA has determined that they will pay for one playoff bid for every 6.5 participants (in most sports.  The playoff ratio is slightly higher in other sports.)

Almost every fan on this site thinks that the expansion from 3 Pool C bids to 6 Pool C bids in 2005 was a big improvement.  Why do we have Pool C bids?  IMHO, to improve the playoffs.

In 2002, John Carroll (OAC) won the East as the #7 seed!  Parity?  That suggests that the East has parity, but wouldn't ever make the playoffs in the North  Region!  2002 Bracket

IN 2004 Pool C Mary Hardin-Baylor (ASC) made it to the Stagg Bowl back when there were only 3 Pool C bids.  D3football.com's (Week #11 Poll) #8 UMHB went on the road and beat   #7 Trinity by 29, #3 HSU by 14, #5 W&J by 36 and #1 Mount Union by 3 in Alliance.  They lost to Elliott's #2 Linfield in the Stagg, 21-28.

(Please remember that D3football.com is an opinion of 25 knowledgeable SID's Coaches and Media of the best teams in the country.  The NCAA Selection process is the asscoiation's process to determine all playoff contenders.)

Let's get the best teams in the country as far apart as we can for as long as we can in the playoffs.  Moving a really top seed to a demonstrably weaker region is fine with me.

But most sports just consider this a necessary by-product. Is the Big-12 going to move Texas/Texas Tech/Oklahoma into the North division so they can play for the Big-12 title? They're clearly all better than Missouri. In 2006 the NFL had 4 teams in the AFC with 12+ wins. The NFC had 1. Did we move Baltimore to the NFC so they wouldn't lose in the first round because the AFC was so much tougher? In 2007, 5 of the top 7 teams in the NHL were from the West. Why not shift one to the East so they can make it farther?

Teams in D-III have to play such regional schedules, and recruiting is so regional, it's not like most other sports where you have national reach. Why not leave the East to the East? Yes, it's unfortunate for good teams in the North who could probably pound a lot of East teams and get stuck losing to MUC in the regionals, but how is that the East's fault? Sure, if the East wasn't so atrocious, they wouldn't have to worry about having teams moved over, but what's the ultimate goal here? So some team can lose to MUC or Whitewater in the national semis instead of the national quarters?

The last 15 National Title games have had either Rowan or MUC in 13 of them. D-III football is top-heavy enough. We've had the same NC game three years in a row. Why do we need to go out of our way to ensure we get more of the same? If that's the way the cookie crumbles, I'm cool with it. But engineering the "best" matchups has, in my opinion, a bad side effect. It manufactures the same matchups. I honestly wish there was some more parity in D-III football. It'd be nice to see some different teams get some national exposure beyond the MUC's of the world...

[HScoach]

If Utica on your schedule was instead Hartwick... or if Endicott on your schedule was instead Plymouth St. or Curry... We wouldn't be having nearly as much argument to try to convince people that RPI should be in as a Pool C.  Either they might be ahead of Monclair at this point (which would be important to avoid the "freeze out" that's happening right now to RPI) or they would be assured the final Pool C slot with only one of the eight scenarios I posed happening.  A subtle change in scheduling could go a long way down the road to help RPI build up a much better insurance policy.  Right now, Wooster fans think a two-loss Wooster has a shot over a one-loss RPI team.  I'm trying to beat them back, but such an argument shouldn't even be capable of happening.

Not sure if anyone in the East cares, but here's my two cents.

I'm beyond shocked that there are people out there who honestly believe Wooster should be in the field with 2 losses.  Are you kinding me?  Wooster?  They'd be one of my last ranked 9-1 teams, let alone 8-2.   I'd take an 8-2 Ithaca before I'd take a 9-1 Wooster.  Outside of Wabash, their conference is horrible. 

[theoriginalupstate]

USee posted this in the General Football's Potential Playoff Selection/Seeds:

Found an article in a local Ohio paper interviewing Dick Kaiser, Head of the D3 playoff selection committee. Here is the link:

http://www.crescent-news.com/news/article/4466158

He says some interesting things that give insight into the committee's thinking.

On the top 4 seeds:

"I think we're going to try again to seed the top four teams," said Kaiser, who served as the defensive coordinator at Idaho State in 1981 when it won the Division I-AA national championship and before that coached outside linebackers at BYU. "Then take the teams and fill up the brackets so it won't be like North, East, South and West. It'll be like Team A's bracket, Team B's bracket and so on and so forth. That's how last year, everybody was all upset that all of sudden Mount Union was playing all of these East teams. Alliance is close (to the East coast) and can play all those East teams."

On the criteria for selection:


"The very first thing we always look at is there any head-to-head meetings," said Kaiser, a Boulder, Colo. native. "Head-to-head is one of the primary criteria we always look at in ranking teams and putting teams into the field. If they didn't play each other, then you have to go to the numbers about their opponents, their in-region record, their opponents in-region record, their opponents, opponents in-region record. Then you also look at the secondary criteria, their opponents in-division record and their opponents, opponents in-division record. Those are four numbers that we have to take into play."
Using a common opponent that teams played can also be used in the Pool B and C situations.
"Last year we had a Pool C team make it in by five to sixth one-thousand of a point," explained Kaiser. "Kind of like Defiance High School got into the playoffs this year."

On Travel problems with 1st round mathchups:

Kaiser and the committee have the challenging task of matching up teams in the playoffs so the don't have to fly to play games, with the cost coming out of the NCAA's pocket. The NCAA requires teams to fly if they're traveling 500 miles or more and requires teams to take a bus if the trip is 499 miles or closer.
"That's not ever real easy, not at all," said Kaiser about trying to keep flights to a minimum for the playoffs. "This year there's a strong possibility that there will be a potential No. 1 (regional) seed out of Oregon, an undefeated team out of California, a one-loss league champion out of Texas and undefeated team out of Jackson, Miss. There's no schools close, so you're going to have to fly."
________________________________________________________________________________



Thoughts?

I still think MUC could go east regardless of the Cortland outcome...