East Region Playoff Discussion

[dlippiel]

Yes, clearly I got confused and forgot everything I learned in 14 years of watching Division III football closely.

Not sure, honestly, how you expect me to re-evaluate the NEFC but not Curry. Seems impossible to do. I stand by my opinion that Curry should go out and schedule someone a little tougher than Worcester State next season for its 10th game.

Van De Geisen does indeed span the entire "Curry winning a playoff game" history, though. That's what raises Curry above the level of the average NEFC champion. That's what they have to show they can continue without him.

I understand it's hard to look at things objectively when you are so close to the program, but this is what reality is like from the outside.

Pat,

I never meant that you personally should evaluate the NEFC.  If it sounded that way then I apologize.  I do not know the resources of your organization.  I had suspected that someone might take a longer look that's all.  I also just hoped that based upon what has happened in NCAA playoffs over the past couple of years you might, just maybe, acknowledge there is some decent football being palyed in the NEFC.

Look you're the big dog so you get the heat.  I thought this day after a win at IC, and a pool c bid selection by the NCAA ,that of all the people that might take a shot at Curry and the NEFC it would not come from the D3 football guys themselves.  

Where I do completely agree with you is that Curry and some other NEFC teams need to schedule some outside competition.  Let's hope we see that happen next year.

BTW, I never ment to call into question your 14 years of experience.  But you know and I know that one player doesn't make a team.

Btown I don't think there is any question many of us overlooked Curry. The thing is though what you are not getting is who did we or any have to compare them to? I think Pat was being as objective as possible. I think you seem to have a passion and/or connection to the program so your mirror may be a bit foggy (very understandable though when it comes to U I can't even see through my mirror) Even the win over Wick last year really was not all that impressive because of the amount of points Wick gave up throughout the season and the lack of consistency they had on the "D" side of the ball. Only now with the very impressive W at Ithaca are we seeing that Curry really is a good team. It is just hard to gauge though because of the lack of outside scheduling. I mean look Plmouth is obviously a talented team, they beat Curry but lost to Mt. IDA. WHat do we have in regards of consistent results to gauge the NEFC? It's just tough ya know? By the way no such thing as a one man team.......SEE HARTWICK....BOLTUS

I understand your point and agree if it's possible a number of NEFC teams should try to schedule teams out of their league.  I had only originally asked Pat to re-evaluate the NEFC competition level.  It wasn't about Curry.  Look, I know its difficult to eveluate the teams in the NEFC without a benchmark game or two.  Curry has had three in two years and stands at 2-1 (Wick, St. Jonhs Fisher, and IC).  My point is the players in that league deserve a fair shake.  Its difficult.  But if a person wnats to be the sheriif then wear the badge and don't get pi$$ed off cause someone asks for some consideration.

I also acknowledge your many positive posts after yesterday's win.  You were cool to do that.  I actually registered to thank you and others but got cuaght up in this stuff.

Thanks BTOWN I really feel like I made some bone headed comments towards the NEFC that were unfounded and seemingly wrong. I appreciate you acknowleding my comments I meant them and will hopefully look more into a program and conference before I start barking out comments and goofing off. Saturday was a real big win for Curry and the NEFC. They deserve credit and I wanted to give it to them.

[union89]

Each of the other No. 7 seed has won playoff games with quarterbacks other than their current ones.

I guess you didn't read the post I was responding to, then. Mel said Curry is good and will be good. I don't think there are facts in evidence to suggest the latter, only the former. And that's why I note that Curry's only playoff wins are with the current quarterback, who is a senior.

You make it out to be an unsolicited shot at Curry, when in fact, I was called out by name and a claim was made that has dubious support. I called that assertion into question.

Are you following now?

Pat,

Yeah I am with you now.  I hope you will understand that my request for a re-evaluation of the NEFC comes from frustration (not with you).  As I said in my earlier post you're the big dog so you get the heat.  For that you have my appreciation and if I offened you my apologies. 

We're hopefully cool now?  Peace.

Pat's a good dude ...took me a while to understand this...but he is.....  You are by FAR the most knowledgable NEFC guy here.....Keep posting and don't get discouraged....we need more guys like you.

PS - Again we will call you a clown and an assmonkey, but you can call us the same

[mel]

By the QB comparison of Curry.

How many playoff games has St John Fisher won with out the QB who graduated last year?   

Wins by RPI without Cochran?

This is a very tough barometer because with the breakout of a program is usually a keystone player. 

At this point if you think Curry is now a solid playoff team you will see that.

If you feel Curry needs to further prove itself than IMO you may always feel this way or just plain want to.

[Ralph Turner]

By the QB comparison of Curry.

How many playoff games has St John Fisher won with our the QB who graduated last year?   

Wins by RPI without Cochran?

This is a very tough barometer because with the breakout of a program is usually a keystone player. 

At this point if you think Curry is now a solid playoff team you will see that.

If you feel Curry needs to further prove itself than IMO you may always feel this way or just plain want to.

Respectfully, that is not what Pat Coleman is saying or what he has said.

pg04 mentioned four programs.

Wesley has stayed at the top thru numerous personnel changes.  Wesley was getting Pool B bids back in 2000!

UMHB has gone thru almost 3 cycles of players under Coach Fred with no drop-off.

UW-Whitewater has gone thru a coaching change and stayed at the top.

St John's?  Gagliardi!

All of us fans are now looking to see if Curry is a top flight program that is winning in the playoffs in 2010!  That is what he means.

[Senor RedTackle]

By the QB comparison of Curry.

How many playoff games has St John Fisher won with our the QB who graduated last year?   

Wins by RPI without Cochran?

well, there were like 13 of them so be more specific...
http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=1541

Let's assume you mean Flynn, the WR who teamed up w/ Cole and graduated in 2003. There was no Cochrane as a "regular" QB (but he did take some snaps like a Wildcat formation)

Post-Flynn Cochrane:

2004: 5-4
2005:  8-2 (Beat SJF in ECAC)
2006:  7-3 (Beat Cortland in ECAC)
2007:   8-2 (Lost to TCNJ in NCAAs)
2008:  8-2 (Beat Alfred in ECACs)

Record "AC"...After-Cochrane:  36-13 
Do your homework dude......

[union89]

By the QB comparison of Curry.

How many playoff games has St John Fisher won with our the QB who graduated last year?   

Wins by RPI without Cochran?

well, there were like 13 of them so be more specific...
http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=1541

Let's assume you mean Flynn, the WR who teamed up w/ Cole and graduated in 2003. There was no Cochrane as a "regular" QB (but he did take some snaps like a Wildcat formation)

Post-Flynn Cochrane:

2004: 5-4
2005:  8-2 (Beat SJF in ECAC)
2006:  7-3 (Beat Cortland in ECAC)
2007:   8-2 (Lost to TCNJ in NCAAs)
2008:  8-2 (Beat Alfred in ECACs)

Record "AC"...After-Cochrane:  36-13 
Do your homework dude......

Maybe it's me, but when do we start to differentiate between NCAA and ECAC.......lets compare apples to apples here.

Duke doesn't brag about going to the NIT's......I bet Ithaca doesn't pound thier chest about winning an ECAC game either.

Let's cut the Postseason crap out and keep it to an NCAA game please.

[Frank Rossi]

Maybe it's me, but when do we start to differentiate between NCAA and ECAC.......lets compare apples to apples here.

Duke doesn't brag about going to the NIT's......I bet Ithaca doesn't pound thier chest about winning an ECAC game either.

Let's cut the Postseason crap out and keep it to an NCAA game please.

I think you best listen to "In the HuddLLe" from tonight and listen to the opinions of the guys that actually willingly play in the ECACs before you go down this route once again.

[pg04]

I agree that many players and teams are happy to play an extra game and happy with an ECAC win.  However, in the discussion that was taking place with the Curry posters, only the NCAA appearances are relevant as we're talking about programs that have been able to consistantly get to the NCAAs and win..

[mel]

I did my homework and was only talking about the NCAA tourny.
I will not be part of an ECAC discussion as it is not worth much discussion.

So the answer was none as to how many playoff wins (NCAA) RPI had without their great class.   They were fun to watch.

I know one thing.. the people are into this chatter.

[union89]

NO ONE wakes up at 6am as an 18 year old kid to go to the gym and work out for a couple hours in the Summer thinking, "God, I hope I can get a bid to an ECAC game and be the 8th best team in the East."

Doesn't happen......before the season starts, any kid who says, "Hell ya, an ECAC bid is a great season for my school"......I don't want that kid in my program.

I don't care if I go to Union or Mt. Ida.......anything outside of a bid to the NCAA Tourmnament is a let down.

As an athlete, you don't play to be 10th best.....sorry.

[Frank Rossi]

NO ONE wakes up at 6am as an 18 year old kid to go to the gym and work out for a couple hours in the Summer thinking, "God, I hope I can get a bid to an ECAC game and be the 8th best team in the East."

Doesn't happen......before the season starts, any kid who says, "Hell ya, an ECAC bid is a great season for my school"......I don't want that kid in my program.

I don't care if I go to Union or Mt. Ida.......anything outside of a bid to the NCAA Tourmnament is a let down.

As an athlete, you don't play to be 10th best.....sorry.

Interesting... Perhaps we should take your argument to the next level, since you seem to want to grandstand on it so badly...

----

No 16-year-old wakes up to go to the gym at 6AM in the morning to work out for a couple of hours in the summer thinking, "Boy, I really want to play for a Division III football program.  I want to be the fourth best in terms of divisional strength when I play football in college."

----

Interesting, isn't it?  Division III is deeply seeded in the idea that student-athletes who might not be the greatest at their sport can still find a competitive level at which to play and to excel as both students and athletes.  The ECAC games, while not the desired destination for an 18-year-old kid who is joining a program, much like Division III may not be the desired stopping point for a 16-year-old kid in high school, are the chance for a group of players to showcase their talents against teams that they may not otherwise play -- and can often prove memorable for a variety of reasons.

They are football games against generally strong teams that carry a definitive finality to them when they are played -- and thus, they count just as much, if not more, for any school participating in them.  Only about 15% of the teams in Division III will make it to the NCAA Playoffs in any given year.  If you're telling me that all of the other 85% of those teams are crap and not worth playing for a special additional game, then you need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid Jim McLaughlin is feeding you.

[DanPadavona]

Smell the coffee... stop laying it on thick on the NEFC..
That goes for you as well Pat Coleman.

Now Curry should go out and actually SCHEDULE someone in the regular season. Don't leave us guessing in November as to whether you're actually good or not.

What a concept to actually play a challenging schedule.  You might want to forward the same memo to Husson just in case they run the table next year against SUNY Maritime, etc.

[DanPadavona]

Sorry, dude -- didn't mean to hit you in the Darnley.

Now that made me laugh.  +K!

['gro]

By the QB comparison of Curry.

How many playoff games has St John Fisher won with our the QB who graduated last year?   

Wins by RPI without Cochran?

well, there were like 13 of them so be more specific...
http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=1541

Let's assume you mean Flynn, the WR who teamed up w/ Cole and graduated in 2003. There was no Cochrane as a "regular" QB (but he did take some snaps like a Wildcat formation)

Post-Flynn Cochrane:

2004: 5-4
2005:  8-2 (Beat SJF in ECAC)
2006:  7-3 (Beat Cortland in ECAC)
2007:   8-2 (Lost to TCNJ in NCAAs)
2008:  8-2 (Beat Alfred in ECACs)

Record "AC"...After-Cochrane:  36-13 
Do your homework dude......

me thinks he's thinking of Cole, but either way they graduated the same year.

Fellas, lets not dog the ECAC games.  Looking back on 2008, is Gro gonna talk about RPI's convincing in season victory against Endicott, or the ECAC win vs Alfred? ECAC games don't "count", but they are still games where teams can prove some things on the field (talent, coaching, etc).

It's much better than leaving it up to us basement dwelling posters to argue about it online long enough until Mom calls from upstairs and says my grilled cheese sandwich is getting cold....  uh, nevermind.


_{Mmmmmmmmm.....}

[lewdogg11]

ECAC games are nice to win.  RPI is a GREAT ECAC team.  They are at this point in time, a flash in the pan as far as the NCAA goes.  No matter what Frank or anyone has to say with their personal differences, U89 is 100% correct.  EVERYONE involved with the RPI program SHOULD think that winning an ECAC game against Alfred is a letdown.  The expectations are much higher than that.

The horrible 16 year old, division III hypothetical was not even close to this discussion.  ECAC games are not 'postseason' as far as i'm concerned.  They are that 10th game against a decent opponent that should have been scheduled in the first place.