East Region Playoff Discussion

[dlippiel]

Just a comment here today I was talking with a friend who graduated from Brockport last year and he was talking about their loss to Morrisville last year in mud and slop. Don't know if this is true for sure but he was saying that he was told that if they won that game there would have been the possibility of getting an ECAC bid. He said he was crushed at the fact that he may have had the opoortunity to play one more game, seemingly considering an ECAC bid as "postseason." I really don't know how I feel about it either way but thought that was an interesting discussion we had. He was speaking from the heart and really really wanted that ECAC game.

[Frank Rossi]

ECAC games are nice to win.  RPI is a GREAT ECAC team.  They are at this point in time, a flash in the pan as far as the NCAA goes.  No matter what Frank or anyone has to say with their personal differences, U89 is 100% correct.  EVERYONE involved with the RPI program SHOULD think that winning an ECAC game against Alfred is a letdown.  The expectations are much higher than that.

The horrible 16 year old, division III hypothetical was not even close to this discussion.  ECAC games are not 'postseason' as far as i'm concerned.  They are that 10th game against a decent opponent that should have been scheduled in the first place. 

First off, it's an analogy, not a hypothetical...

Second, care to explain why the analogy missed the mark before I breathe fire like a Cortland dragon?

[Jonny Utah]

While Im waiting for my grilled cheese (gro did you see 'blizzard man' Sat night?), Id like to make a final point....

I think we can all agree that the ECACs are like the NIT and the NCAA playoffs are like.....well the NCAA playoffs?

I mean ask yourself, what would you rather be, the d3 NCAA champion, or the ECAC champion?  The answer is easy.  But sometimes different football teams or programs find themselves in different spots at the end of the season.  

Go back to the d1 b-ball example.  

-There are going to be large conference teams that are upset they didnt make the field of 64, and end up in the NIT.  It happens.  They can still go out and play some more basketball.  

-Then there are the teams from smaller conferences, who know they arent going to make it, but might have a chance to prove something in the NIT against those large conference schools who didnt make it.  

-Then there are the teams who might have been new to d1, and now have a chance to showcase something on a bigger stage.

-Then there are the teams who might have started the season with a bunch of losses, and knew they werent going to make the playoffs.  They might have come back strong at the end of the season and were looking for something to prove.

-Then there might be some programs who have been down for a while who are now back up and might have a chance to prove something.

The list goes on and on and the more I type, the more pointless the whole thing seems to me.

ECAC's are good in some situations, but they should never be the overall goal of a football team that is serious about playing d3 football.  Playoffs are there for a reason.

[union89]

While Im waiting for my grilled cheese (gro did you see 'blizzard man' Sat night?), Id like to make a final point....

I think we can all agree that the ECACs are like the NIT and the NCAA playoffs are like.....well the NCAA playoffs?

I mean ask yourself, what would you rather be, the d3 NCAA champion, or the ECAC champion?  The answer is easy.  But sometimes different football teams or programs find themselves in different spots at the end of the season.  

Go back to the d1 b-ball example.  

-There are going to be large conference teams that are upset they didnt make the field of 64, and end up in the NIT.  It happens.  They can still go out and play some more basketball.  

-Then there are the teams from smaller conferences, who know they arent going to make it, but might have a chance to prove something in the NIT against those large conference schools who didnt make it.  

-Then there are the teams who might have been new to d1, and now have a chance to showcase something on a bigger stage.

-Then there are the teams who might have started the season with a bunch of losses, and knew they werent going to make the playoffs.  They might have come back strong at the end of the season and were looking for something to prove.

-Then there might be some programs who have been down for a while who are now back up and might have a chance to prove something.

The list goes on and on and the more I type, the more pointless the whole thing seems to me.

ECAC's are good in some situations, but they should never be the overall goal of a football team that is serious about playing d3 football.  Playoffs are there for a reason.

To further the point, I would rather lose an NCAA game than win an ECAC game.

[Frank Rossi]

Nobody is saying that ECAC games are primary "goals" per se.  What we're saying, those who agree with me, is that the goal is for a postseason game (much like the 16-year-old football player's goal is to play in college).  Now the specific goal is to play in the NCAA Playoffs (akin to playing at an FBS school for the 16-year-old player).  Only 15% of the teams will get to meet that goal in Division III (the 16-year-old player faces probably lower odds in terms of players who aim to achieve a spot on FBS teams).  If the team falls short, they are still generally excited to be:

1) Recognized for their accomplishments on the field that year with a potential ECAC bid; and

2) Playing an additional game against a very good team to see how far the team has come that season in a variety of senses.

(for the 16-year-old player, he may be offered a spot on a D-3 team, which recognizes his accomplishments on the field and allows him to play at a collegiate level to see how he matches up and to continue his football growth).

My point is this -- just because our PRIMARY aim is not the ECACs doesn't render them meaningless.  If you buy into that theory, then seriously, you're rendering a secondary level of many things, including lower divisions of college football, meaningless unless you are going to sit there and be a hypocrite.  I'd wager that a good number of the people trying to dictate this type of point are the same people who will watch the Las Vegas Bowl, the St. Petersburg Bowl, etc... These are secondary, meaningless games, too, if you feel the ECAC games are meaningless.  They come from the same basic premise -- there's a desire for the teams, fans and schools to participate in such a game.  If you truly don't want to play, DON'T FILE.  Simply stated.

[Edit:  And to this whole "they don't count" point -- BULLSH**.  The games still last four quarters, are sanctioned by the NCAA, have a winner and a loser, abide by the rules of College Football and still rely on the teams to play their butts off against most likely a team as good as, if not better than, most teams the team has played that season.  This weekend provides even MORE evidence to the meaning and purposes of these games -- and yet, some people are going to sit here and attempt to discredit them?  ON WHAT BASIS?  I challenge all of you naysayers to go to the ECACs PP right now (since we're off-topic here) and post your bases instead of just dogging the damned games without justification.  JU maybe gave us the most sensible discussion so far related to that side of the argument, but his answer seems to suggest he reaches an inconclusive point, with the point riding on who the beholder is of the games.  C'mon now -- state your cause if you really want to convince people here.  U89 took 12 hours since he saw my post to say he'd rather lose an NCAA game than win an ECAC game.  WOW.  No sh** dufus.  Teams don't CHOOSE whether they get an NCAA slot or not.  Your arguments are really underwhelming.]

[Jonny Utah]

While Im waiting for my grilled cheese (gro did you see 'blizzard man' Sat night?), Id like to make a final point....

I think we can all agree that the ECACs are like the NIT and the NCAA playoffs are like.....well the NCAA playoffs?

I mean ask yourself, what would you rather be, the d3 NCAA champion, or the ECAC champion?  The answer is easy.  But sometimes different football teams or programs find themselves in different spots at the end of the season.  

Go back to the d1 b-ball example.  

-There are going to be large conference teams that are upset they didnt make the field of 64, and end up in the NIT.  It happens.  They can still go out and play some more basketball.  

-Then there are the teams from smaller conferences, who know they arent going to make it, but might have a chance to prove something in the NIT against those large conference schools who didnt make it.  

-Then there are the teams who might have been new to d1, and now have a chance to showcase something on a bigger stage.

-Then there are the teams who might have started the season with a bunch of losses, and knew they werent going to make the playoffs.  They might have come back strong at the end of the season and were looking for something to prove.

-Then there might be some programs who have been down for a while who are now back up and might have a chance to prove something.

The list goes on and on and the more I type, the more pointless the whole thing seems to me.

ECAC's are good in some situations, but they should never be the overall goal of a football team that is serious about playing d3 football.  Playoffs are there for a reason.

To further the point, I would rather lose an NCAA game than win an ECAC game.

Well in the grand scheme of things I agree, but I bet the Husson players (if they had won) would feel a lot better about their season than the Ithaca players do right now.  And thats not a shot against the IC guys, but losing at any round stings.

[Jonny Utah]

Nobody is saying that ECAC games are primary "goals" per se.  What we're saying, those who agree with me, is that the goal is for a postseason game (much like the 16-year-old football player's goal is to play in college).  Now the specific goal is to play in the NCAA Playoffs (akin to playing at an FBS school for the 16-year-old player).  Only 15% of the teams will get to meet that goal in Division III (the 16-year-old player faces probably lower odds in terms of players who aim to achieve a spot on FBS teams).  If the team falls short, they are still generally excited to be:

1) Recognized for their accomplishments on the field that year with a potential ECAC bid; and

2) Playing an additional game against a very good team to see how far the team has come that season in a variety of senses.

(for the 16-year-old player, he may be offered a spot on a D-3 team, which recognizes his accomplishments on the field and allows him to play at a collegiate level to see how he matches up and to continue his football growth).

My point is this -- just because our PRIMARY aim is not the ECACs doesn't render them meaningless.  If you buy into that theory, then seriously, you're rendering a secondary level of many things, including lower divisions of college football, meaningless unless you are going to sit there and be a hypocrite.  I'd wager that a good number of the people trying to dictate this type of point are the same people who will watch the Las Vegas Bowl, the St. Petersburg Bowl, etc... These are secondary, meaningless games, too, if you feel the ECAC games are meaningless.  They come from the same basic premise -- there's a desire for the teams, fans and schools to participate in such a game.  If you truly don't want to play, DON'T FILE.  Simply stated.

Frank I agree with everything you said, but sometimes there is that team that derseves to make the playoffs but doesn't get in.  Now that team is chosen, or files(and thats a good point you mention here) for a game that isn't meaningless but still doesn't mean as much as the playoffs do.  I mean, we can't say the nescac season is meaningless just because they don't have playoffs, but there is something to be said for playing for a national championship and not just a league title.

Its kind of hard to put into words but I hope it makes a little sense.

[union89]

While Im waiting for my grilled cheese (gro did you see 'blizzard man' Sat night?), Id like to make a final point....

I think we can all agree that the ECACs are like the NIT and the NCAA playoffs are like.....well the NCAA playoffs?

I mean ask yourself, what would you rather be, the d3 NCAA champion, or the ECAC champion?  The answer is easy.  But sometimes different football teams or programs find themselves in different spots at the end of the season.  

Go back to the d1 b-ball example.  

-There are going to be large conference teams that are upset they didnt make the field of 64, and end up in the NIT.  It happens.  They can still go out and play some more basketball.  

-Then there are the teams from smaller conferences, who know they arent going to make it, but might have a chance to prove something in the NIT against those large conference schools who didnt make it.  

-Then there are the teams who might have been new to d1, and now have a chance to showcase something on a bigger stage.

-Then there are the teams who might have started the season with a bunch of losses, and knew they werent going to make the playoffs.  They might have come back strong at the end of the season and were looking for something to prove.

-Then there might be some programs who have been down for a while who are now back up and might have a chance to prove something.

The list goes on and on and the more I type, the more pointless the whole thing seems to me.

ECAC's are good in some situations, but they should never be the overall goal of a football team that is serious about playing d3 football.  Playoffs are there for a reason.

To further the point, I would rather lose an NCAA game than win an ECAC game.

Well in the grand scheme of things I agree, but I bet the Husson players (if they had won) would feel a lot better about their season than the Ithaca players do right now.  And thats not a shot against the IC guys, but losing at any round stings.

How about the Fisher staff playing the whole roster?  Were the Cardinals, 'taking the game seriously'?  Would they have played everyone had it been an NCAA game?

[dlippiel]

While Im waiting for my grilled cheese (gro did you see 'blizzard man' Sat night?), Id like to make a final point....

I think we can all agree that the ECACs are like the NIT and the NCAA playoffs are like.....well the NCAA playoffs?

I mean ask yourself, what would you rather be, the d3 NCAA champion, or the ECAC champion?  The answer is easy.  But sometimes different football teams or programs find themselves in different spots at the end of the season.  

Go back to the d1 b-ball example.  

-There are going to be large conference teams that are upset they didnt make the field of 64, and end up in the NIT.  It happens.  They can still go out and play some more basketball.  

-Then there are the teams from smaller conferences, who know they arent going to make it, but might have a chance to prove something in the NIT against those large conference schools who didnt make it.  

-Then there are the teams who might have been new to d1, and now have a chance to showcase something on a bigger stage.

-Then there are the teams who might have started the season with a bunch of losses, and knew they werent going to make the playoffs.  They might have come back strong at the end of the season and were looking for something to prove.

-Then there might be some programs who have been down for a while who are now back up and might have a chance to prove something.

The list goes on and on and the more I type, the more pointless the whole thing seems to me.

ECAC's are good in some situations, but they should never be the overall goal of a football team that is serious about playing d3 football.  Playoffs are there for a reason.

To further the point, I would rather lose an NCAA game than win an ECAC game.

See your point U89 and I think it holds a lot of validity, it's a tough call though. I think I would rather make it to the "show" and lose then play in an ECAC game BUT I think an ECAC game can be very positive and help a program grow and gain momentum for the follwing year.

[Frank Rossi]

Nobody is saying that ECAC games are primary "goals" per se.  What we're saying, those who agree with me, is that the goal is for a postseason game (much like the 16-year-old football player's goal is to play in college).  Now the specific goal is to play in the NCAA Playoffs (akin to playing at an FBS school for the 16-year-old player).  Only 15% of the teams will get to meet that goal in Division III (the 16-year-old player faces probably lower odds in terms of players who aim to achieve a spot on FBS teams).  If the team falls short, they are still generally excited to be:

1) Recognized for their accomplishments on the field that year with a potential ECAC bid; and

2) Playing an additional game against a very good team to see how far the team has come that season in a variety of senses.

(for the 16-year-old player, he may be offered a spot on a D-3 team, which recognizes his accomplishments on the field and allows him to play at a collegiate level to see how he matches up and to continue his football growth).

My point is this -- just because our PRIMARY aim is not the ECACs doesn't render them meaningless.  If you buy into that theory, then seriously, you're rendering a secondary level of many things, including lower divisions of college football, meaningless unless you are going to sit there and be a hypocrite.  I'd wager that a good number of the people trying to dictate this type of point are the same people who will watch the Las Vegas Bowl, the St. Petersburg Bowl, etc... These are secondary, meaningless games, too, if you feel the ECAC games are meaningless.  They come from the same basic premise -- there's a desire for the teams, fans and schools to participate in such a game.  If you truly don't want to play, DON'T FILE.  Simply stated.

Frank I agree with everything you said, but sometimes there is that team that derseves to make the playoffs but doesn't get in.  Now that team is chosen, or files(and thats a good point you mention here) for a game that isn't meaningless but still doesn't mean as much as the playoffs do.  I mean, we can't say the nescac season is meaningless just because they don't have playoffs, but there is something to be said for playing for a national championship and not just a league title.

Its kind of hard to put into words but I hope it makes a little sense.

I DON'T DISAGREE.  The point I'm bitching about here is the idea U89 came up with last night when Senor RT pointed out ECAC victories for RPI that they should be discounted from the equation -- that they're meaningless and not really postseason games (paraphrasing).  There is absolutely no rational basis to make such a demeaning statement after 14 teams played their hearts out this past Saturday, splitting 7 Ws and 7 Ls in generally well-played games.

[clandfan]

Mel you conveniently leave out the times where undefeated NEFC teams get spanked in the first round to other east teams who might have lost to other east teams in the playoffs. (8-2 east team sits home while 10-0 nefc team loses by 5 TDs)

1987 Ithaca/Plymouth St ECAC game?  Are you kidding me?  How about when Ithaca had to travel up and spank around the 1994 undefeated Plymouth team that was so great.

Or the 1996 6-3 Ithaca team that beat up on 10-0 Worcester St?

You also conveniently left out the Springfield/Fitchburg game this year where the 5th place E8 team destroyed the NEFCs 5th place team.

Im also not so sure kids are choosing NEFC schools over Ithaca because of football programs.  That simply is not happening 99% of the time.

A lot of people defended the Curry pick, including me.  We all talked about it but I wasnt that suprised.

And I want you to answer my other question. 

What happens if Cortland beats Curry 48-0?  Its not as simple as one game...

[clandfan]

Sorry...too quick on the button and I apologize as I am just catching up with the posters from the weekend.  With regard to above....geesh, do you think you could come up with more current references?  1987, 1994, 1996....you are living in the past.

[union89]

NO ONE wakes up at 6am as an 18 year old kid to go to the gym and work out for a couple hours in the Summer thinking, "God, I hope I can get a bid to an ECAC game and be the 8th best team in the East."

Doesn't happen......before the season starts, any kid who says, "Hell ya, an ECAC bid is a great season for my school"......I don't want that kid in my program.

I don't care if I go to Union or Mt. Ida.......anything outside of a bid to the NCAA Tourmnament is a let down.

As an athlete, you don't play to be 10th best.....sorry.

Interesting... Perhaps we should take your argument to the next level, since you seem to want to grandstand on it so badly...

----

No 16-year-old wakes up to go to the gym at 6AM in the morning to work out for a couple of hours in the summer thinking, "Boy, I really want to play for a Division III football program.  I want to be the fourth best in terms of divisional strength when I play football in college."

----

Interesting, isn't it?  Division III is deeply seeded in the idea that student-athletes who might not be the greatest at their sport can still find a competitive level at which to play and to excel as both students and athletes.  The ECAC games, while not the desired destination for an 18-year-old kid who is joining a program, much like Division III may not be the desired stopping point for a 16-year-old kid in high school, are the chance for a group of players to showcase their talents against teams that they may not otherwise play -- and can often prove memorable for a variety of reasons.

They are football games against generally strong teams that carry a definitive finality to them when they are played -- and thus, they count just as much, if not more, for any school participating in them.  Only about 15% of the teams in Division III will make it to the NCAA Playoffs in any given year.  If you're telling me that all of the other 85% of those teams are crap and not worth playing for a special additional game, then you need to stop drinking the Kool-Aid Jim McLaughlin is feeding you.

Man, you have a lot of misdirected anger.

I have stated that the Union College special teams units have cost the team wins this year.  That being said, on November 8 at about 9:00pm, I discussed my concerns with members of the Union staff at the Parker Inn in Schenectady.  You know what....the coached agreed with me and stated that the performance of that unit had already been discussed and would be a focus of next years team.

Frank, you continue to bash Union's AD through me.....very misdirected....as I said to you before, you should sack up and contact the AD instead of being the professional you are and slamming him in public on message boards.

I simply sell medical equipment in the Boston area, I have no control over what happens in Schenectady...a little FYI for ya.

[Frank Rossi]

Man, you have a lot of misdirected anger.

I have stated that the Union College special teams units have cost the team wins this year.  That being said, on November 8 at about 9:00pm, I discussed my concerns with members of the Union staff at the Parker Inn in Schenectady.  You know what....the coached agreed with me and stated that the performance of that unit had already been discussed and would be a focus of next years team.

Frank, you continue to bash Union's AD through me.....very misdirected....as I said to you before, you should sack up and contact the AD instead of being the professional you are and slamming him in public on message boards.

I simply sell medical equipment in the Boston area, I have no control over what happens in Schenectady...a little FYI for ya.

Ummm... Thanks for the monologue.  Now would you mind defending your point regarding the ECACs?  I'm not sure where Union's Special Teams and the ECAC games exactly mesh here. 

[union89]

Man, you have a lot of misdirected anger.

I have stated that the Union College special teams units have cost the team wins this year.  That being said, on November 8 at about 9:00pm, I discussed my concerns with members of the Union staff at the Parker Inn in Schenectady.  You know what....the coached agreed with me and stated that the performance of that unit had already been discussed and would be a focus of next years team.

Frank, you continue to bash Union's AD through me.....very misdirected....as I said to you before, you should sack up and contact the AD instead of being the professional you are and slamming him in public on message boards.

I simply sell medical equipment in the Boston area, I have no control over what happens in Schenectady...a little FYI for ya.

Ummm... Thanks for the monologue.  Now would you mind defending your point regarding the ECACs?  I'm not sure where Union's Special Teams and the ECAC games exactly mesh here. 

I included the post from last night where you again brought up the AD....did you miss that?