Should the Stagg Bowl find a better site or stay in Salem, Va.

[AO]

It does require A bid, something that wasn't submitted this year. Your fantasy isn't a bad idea, but until places start to bid it simply CAN'T happen. As far as we know, the choices are Shenandoah Texas, Bradenton FL, and Salem VA. Maybe some others bid, but it doesn't appear like your favorites show the inclination to participate.

The last four sites have been OH, AL, FL, and Salem VA (back to 1973 in total). Kings Island OH had it for two years in '83 and '84 before it returned to Phenix City AL. So with the exception of those two years, the Stagg is as close to where you want it as it has ever been.

As for not needing a perfect bid, I agree. But to become the champ you have to knock off the champ. That means the bid needs to be better than Salem's. Until it happens, this is just a never ending whine. We can't force other places to bid or the NCAA to award it to places that show no interest in hosting.

They don't rotate venues for the Olympics, the Final Four, the World Cup and the Super Bowl because this year's host knocked off the previous host.  I think you'd see more bids once they actually start moving the game around.  Right now, it hardly seems worth it as the status quo is easier and familiar.

[jknezek]

It does require A bid, something that wasn't submitted this year. Your fantasy isn't a bad idea, but until places start to bid it simply CAN'T happen. As far as we know, the choices are Shenandoah Texas, Bradenton FL, and Salem VA. Maybe some others bid, but it doesn't appear like your favorites show the inclination to participate.

The last four sites have been OH, AL, FL, and Salem VA (back to 1973 in total). Kings Island OH had it for two years in '83 and '84 before it returned to Phenix City AL. So with the exception of those two years, the Stagg is as close to where you want it as it has ever been.

As for not needing a perfect bid, I agree. But to become the champ you have to knock off the champ. That means the bid needs to be better than Salem's. Until it happens, this is just a never ending whine. We can't force other places to bid or the NCAA to award it to places that show no interest in hosting.

They don't rotate venues for the Olympics, the Final Four, the World Cup and the Super Bowl because this year's host knocked off the previous host.  I think you'd see more bids once they actually start moving the game around.  Right now, it hardly seems worth it as the status quo is easier and familiar.

I think we have a difference in desirability and scale that you are ignoring. Won't even mention the prestige and the ability to leverage otherwise impossible to get tax payer dollars into infrastructure development. But I do acknowledge that the lack of bidders could be attributable to a lack of success in bidding. Not sure if there were more bidders in the past or not. That being said, I think a lot is explained by the post about Canton a few pages back. For a while there were people in charge that wanted it, then they weren't in charge and now no one is interested. There just isn't much bang for buck, except for a community like Salem.

I think Bradenton, backed by IMG, will be a legit contender. Doesn't help what you want, but it may show that the game can be moved. Something to keep an eye on, anyway.

[K-Mack]

The graphic would be fun, but the data speaks for itself.  Salem loses the "number of teams with good attendance within 500 miles" to Columbus, Indianapolis, Chicago and Minneapolis. I think the value of moving the Stagg around the country to different/bigger/hometown audiences outweighs whatever other advantage Salem might have. I also think you could have a good atmosphere with 10,000 fans in Lucas Oil Stadium or the new Metrodome.  Bethel had 7500 in attendance playing in the Dome last week.  It didn't require years of planning and a perfect bid to host a game there.

Fine. I respectfully disagree. I don't have a problem with the Stagg being played somewhere else, but I wouldn't move it just to move it, and I don't think moving it for a possible small bump in attendance outweighs the need to have it in a community that has the volunteer support to pulled

I also think 500 miles is a wide net to cast. Boston is less than 500 miles from D.C., but New York (5-6 hours) is about as far as I'd drive without a super-compelling reason to go. Maybe 300 miles is more reasonable to think it has a major effect on fan draw.

But again, we all concede that geography is not Salem's strong suit, except in comparison to being more drivable than Florida and Texas.

I think you would get a ton of casual D3 interest in the game if it were in a place like Indy or Columbus (for instance, me) and probably boost the attendance of the game a little, but enough to make it worth playing in a place like LOS?  I don't know.  There's something about playing in a cavernous stadium with 20% capacity (if that) that I think takes away from the atmosphere a bit. 

The upside to a place like Minneapolis is that it's easy to get to (relative to Salem anyway), but the downside is the same as Salem...you're kind of off center from the bulk of the D3 fan base.  Are there going to be significantly more people attracted to a Minneapolis Stagg Bowl that doesn't feature a MIAC or WIAC team than there would be for the same game in Salem?  I'm not sure there would be.

I definitely don't want it played in too big a stadium. In Columbus, a 20,000-seat place like where the Crew play (not sure if that soccer stadium can accommodate football) is about as big as I'd go until the attendance numbers show that D-III needs that many seats.

Minneapolis, or Indianapolis, have some advantages, like being easier to get to by plane. But the drawback is that in the bigger cities, the news stations and volunteer organizations might not care as much. It's important for the Stagg Bowl to be treated like an important event and not get lost among all the other pro and big-college things going on in town. If it were here where I work, we might advance it and cover it the day of the game. It would be buried on TV behind the story about the time a Redskins player farted.

[K-Mack]

It does require A bid, something that wasn't submitted this year. Your fantasy isn't a bad idea, but until places start to bid it simply CAN'T happen. As far as we know, the choices are Shenandoah Texas, Bradenton FL, and Salem VA. Maybe some others bid, but it doesn't appear like your favorites show the inclination to participate.

The last four sites have been OH, AL, FL, and Salem VA (back to 1973 in total). Kings Island OH had it for two years in '83 and '84 before it returned to Phenix City AL. So with the exception of those two years, the Stagg is as close to where you want it as it has ever been.

As for not needing a perfect bid, I agree. But to become the champ you have to knock off the champ. That means the bid needs to be better than Salem's. Until it happens, this is just a never ending whine. We can't force other places to bid or the NCAA to award it to places that show no interest in hosting.

They don't rotate venues for the Olympics, the Final Four, the World Cup and the Super Bowl because this year's host knocked off the previous host.  I think you'd see more bids once they actually start moving the game around.  Right now, it hardly seems worth it as the status quo is easier and familiar.

The big point jknezek seems to get but AO seems to be missing is that somewhere else has to want the game before the NCAA will move the game.

I'm sure there are sites that could do good things for the game, but until they match or exceed the interest in the game that Salem has, they won't be the ideal sites, nor would they actually be the sites.

[AO]

I don't have a problem with the Stagg being played somewhere else, but I wouldn't move it just to move it, and I don't think moving it for a possible small bump in attendance outweighs the need to have it in a community that has the volunteer support to pulled

Wouldn't putting the game in a larger city that's easier to get to make it easier to find volunteers?

I definitely don't want it played in too big a stadium. In Columbus, a 20,000-seat place like where the Crew play (not sure if that soccer stadium can accommodate football) is about as big as I'd go until the attendance numbers show that D-III needs that many seats.

I too like venues that fit the size the of the crowd, but having been to several Minnesota high school prep bowls in the Dome, a crowd of 10,000 can get plenty loud.  The fans aren't worried about the weather, parking, waiting in lines at restrooms or finding a good seat.  It's also pretty fun to play in a big time venue even if the crowd isn't similarly big.

Minneapolis, or Indianapolis, have some advantages, like being easier to get to by plane. But the drawback is that in the bigger cities, the news stations and volunteer organizations might not care as much. It's important for the Stagg Bowl to be treated like an important event and not get lost among all the other pro and big-college things going on in town. If it were here where I work, we might advance it and cover it the day of the game. It would be buried on TV behind the story about the time a Redskins player farted.

I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage.  If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?

[FCGrizzliesGrad]

Since we're discussing fantasy ideas that probably have 0 chance of happening, what about combining it with a D1 bowl game? I'm not suggesting combining all the title games like basketball tried, but what if you made a double header with one of the early bowl games (say the Military Bowl in Annapolis)? You could get a boost in attendance from the D1 fans which wouldn't make a 34k seat stadium seem so empty, it'd still be in prime D3 territory, and it's close to DC so fans could easily explore there.

[Pat Coleman]

I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage.  If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?

This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.

[Bob.Gregg]

As a long-standing objector to the western Pennsylvania District High School championships being played at cavernous Heinz Field (68,000 seats) with no more than 6-7,000 in the house during any of the four games, a crowd of less than a third of stadium capacity would be, and look, bad.  Sadly, in a stadium like the MN Dome, etc, a crowd several thousand more than Salem handles would look significantly worse that the full house in VA.......just my 2 cents worth.

[Ralph Turner]

Getting close to "beating a dead horse" time...   
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MjoMQJf5vKI

[AO]

I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage.  If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?

This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.

Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3?  Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here.  You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.

[NCF]

I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage.  If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?

This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.

Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3?  Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here.  You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.

EXACTLY!!!

[jknezek]

I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage.  If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?

This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.

Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3?  Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here.  You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.

Given the growth of D3 football in recent years I'm not sure "growing the brand" is necessarily a top priority. Having a good experience for the student athletes and fans, as well as a competently run event year in and year out that the NCAA has to spend as little time as possible worrying about most likely tops the list. I find having the game on Friday night, an unfortunate necessity thanks to TV schedules, worse for growing the brand and fan interest, than holding it in Salem.

All that being said, I go back to my original idea. In order for someone else to host, they have to bid. And it has to be a competent bid that makes the NCAA reconsider Salem. Until that happens, we are barking up the wrong tree pointing fingers at the NCAA. It's not the NCAA that is keeping the Metrodome or Canton, or anywhere else from bidding...

[Pat Coleman]

I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage.  If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?

This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.

Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3?  Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here.  You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.

EXACTLY!!!

Say two people who have never been to Salem and weren't in Atlanta ...

[Pat Coleman]

In order for someone else to host, they have to bid. And it has to be a competent bid that makes the NCAA reconsider Salem.

Agreed, absolutely. Let someone put together a better bid, for goodness sakes.

[wally_wabash]

I'm sure you've talked to Pat about this before, but I think last year's basketball tournament in Atlanta should alleviate some of your worries about media coverage.  If the big newspaper in town doesn't cover it now, why is it a bad thing to get it covered on the day of the game at least?

This only worked because all three games were played in the same city and the NCAA relentlessly promoted it. At football, you don't have football semifinals two nights earlier to promote your D2 and D3 championships with. If you just put the D3 MBB championship game in Atlanta without the rest around it, it doesn't draw more than a couple thousand, and nobody locally covers it.

Nobody locally covers it? You were initially skeptical of the coverage it would get regardless of the NCAA promotion. If the Salem local media puts the Stagg on the front page of the newspaper and has it as the feature story on the local evening news, does it really help the national recognition of D3?  Maybe you could hire fake reporters in a bigger city to ask questions to the players if the player experience is what you're after here.  You're not going to grow the brand while keeping the game in Salem.

If it is "growing the brand" that you're after, then it doesn't matter where the championship game is held.  Growing the brand isn't about a couple of extra thousands butts in seats it's about several hundred thousand eyeballs on TV and that game is already on TV.  If you want to grow the brand, you've got to get the regular season on TV.  And that'll never happen on Saturdays.  Probably not on Fridays either because ESPN gets more juice out of showing high school games that feature one or two players from their top 800 recruiting list or whatever.  So you've got to get teams to play on goofy nights like Thursdays or Wednesdays and I don't know if that is any good for anybody.  And even then I'm assuming that ESPN (or even NBCS, CBSS, or FS1) have any interest at all in shooting those games, which is a Grand Canyon sized leap of faith.