Should the Stagg Bowl find a better site or stay in Salem, Va.

[wally_wabash]

There's probably not a quick answer for this, but could you maybe talk about what goes into a "bid" and then how that process plays itself out at the home office in Indy?  It is certainly not something that I understand and I don't think I'm alone.  Perhaps if we got a brief synopsis of what components make up a "bid" to host the Stagg Bowl we could advance the conversation further than looping things like "hey, they should play it in Ohio!" over and over. 

[AO]

I'm all for growing the brand, but you have to be realistic about what the brand is and how much growth there is to be had.

I'm all for improving the game and experience, even if that means leaving Salem or rotating it out once in a while, but I have yet to hear enough compelling reasons why a bigger city = better experience, for players and fans, or why a different city = better.

High aspirations, low expectations.

How many compelling reasons do you need?  A bigger city in the mid-west would mean the game is closer to the usual suspects, enabling more fans to get to the game.  A bigger city in Texas or Florida might be easier to fly to, etc...  Bigger cities also have potentially a better stadium, better hotels, better restaurants.  Not saying the NCAA would foot the bill for the more expensive hotels, but the option is there for the fans at least.  Different is better as you can spur a little competition among potential host cities to one-up each other and you also expose the Stagg to new audiences.

[Ralph Turner]

Somebody's Visitors and Convention Bureau is looking at what opportunities are available to fill the hotels and restaurants in the city.

How many fans will come and spend the night, rather than driving in for the day?
How many fans will buy food at a sit-down restaurant?
(When University of Houston played Notre Dame in the Cotton Bowl in the late 1970's, the running joke was that the sales in the 7-11's reached all-time highs because of  the UH fans.)
How much money does each fan spend on his trip while in Stagg-ville, USA?
Is this a natural thing for this city?
Does this city follow a D-3 team or does all of the interest go the local high school/JuCo/D-2/D-1FCS/D1FBS/NFL team?
What else is happening in the third weekend of December that can make us more money from tourism?
Are there any other spinoffs that come from hosting the Stagg Bowl?  Will that make other activities to view this city as a must-have place to hold the event?

So far, my gut feeling is that no place else but Salem VA has put together a competitive package for the NCAA to evaluate.

[smedindy]

A bigger city means the event would get lost.

The MSA of Roanoke holds 300,000 people (give or take). It's the 159th largest. We could play the game of going through the other 158, since God Forbid you'd want one smaller than 159 (so sorry to Kingsport, TN; Boulder; Utica; Lubbock; Erie; Fort Smith; Duluth; etc. etc.)

You have to find the right fit of where it's kind of a big deal, where people can get to, and where it doesn't get left on the "other events around town" page next to the bazaar at the Lutheran Church.

[Ralph Turner]

A bigger city means the event would get lost.

The MSA of Roanoke holds 300,000 people (give or take). It's the 159th largest. We could play the game of going through the other 158, since God Forbid you'd want one smaller than 159 (so sorry to Kingsport, TN; Boulder; Utica; Lubbock; Erie; Fort Smith; Duluth; etc. etc.)

You have to find the right fit of where it's kind of a big deal, where people can get to, and where it doesn't get left on the "other events around town" page next to the bazaar at the Lutheran Church.

Wow!  Boulder!  By the way, I got the munchies again...

[Pat Coleman]

Duluth seems like an ideal place. You know, for the Alpine Skiing championship.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

AO - your comparison to the Olympics, World Cup, Super Bowl... whatever you picked is flawed... because a large number of cities BID to have the rights for those events to come to their cities. Thus, cities that hosting aren't eligible to bid for the next set of games. Also, there is a TON of money involved and thus why you hardly see repeat customers for items like the Olympics or World Cup (which by the way, is based on a country, not a city). Of course, you also used the comparison of some big-time national and international events... and I don't think one person in Division III thinks we compare to those giant events.

Keith has already stated it very clearly... and I will follow up... a big city does not mean a better experience. Keith and I both worth in Top 26 markets and I am telling you the game would be lost in a big city. There is way too many things to distract from it including the fact the media has more interest in something that isn't going to garner much attention from the average person reading or tuning into their news. Atlanta was a great success, but I don't remember seeing that many local TV guys at the DIII title game to get post-game sound afterward. Sure, there was some print media there, but that was about it. The event also had the Division I Final Four to help fuel it and thus drive media and fans to the game. You are talking about taking a single game with not as much fanfare as say a DI basketball Final Four and dropping it into a major city and expecting the same media and fan response? No chance. I had enough of a challenge getting my TV station to cover NCAA tournament games in Division III with nationally ranked teams... the struggle will still be there for a game featuring no teams probably from the area and plenty of other distractions. Heck, the women's lacrosse final fours for Division II and Division III where held in a hot-bed for lacrosse this past May... and I saw one TV camera show up.. and there several teams with connections to Baltimore. Why would the Stagg Bowl be any different or better?

Also, ten thousand fans in a building that holds 30, 40, 50 plus... makes it look like no one showed up. Division III numbers don't show you need a large arena to have the games, so why go there? They closed off the upper section for the Division III men's basketball title game so it felt cosier and didn't look as empty - which was great. You can't close off a football stadium in the same manner and not know it is empty or feels like it is empty.

You need a stadium no bigger than 20k in a community that will rally around the game (volunteers, community service activities, city support, practice facilities, hotel rooms, etc.). That isn't something just thrown around and done by communities. Which gets back to why the game hasn't moved from Salem in a very long time... no bid has compared to Salem. Believe it or not, I have heard how cities come to Salem and see what is done with the championships and they completely rethink their intentions. This isn't just a "we have hotels, transportation and a field... will you come?" type scenario. There is a LOT that goes on behind the scenes that makes this work.

Could I see the game being moved to another location? Sure... but if the BID is the right bid and the NCAA feels it is the right thing to do. Ultimately each sports' championship committee reviews and make their recommendations to the overall championships committee who then makes the final decision. We know who the three bids are this time around... and we will find out any day now if the NCAA feels moving the game from Salem is in the best interest of all of those involved.

[wally_wabash]

Today's news probably shuts the door on this conversation for a few years at least.  Obviously Salem has a great relationship with the NCAA and Division III specifically.  I don't have a problem with Salem being the destination for championships.  The city clearly embraces it and does a great job every year.  Would it be nice if the weather could be perfect every year?  Yes.  Would it be nice if Salem was a little easier to get to?  Of course.  But I think what's been outlined here as alternatives that meet those two goals aren't great alternatives for reasons that Dave has spoken to above (or below depending on your format preference). 

Now I just hope I can get to see my Little Giants make that trip to Salem before we gnash teeth about where the Stagg Bowl should be at again.   

[AO]

Do we have any idea who the people are who are rubber stamping Salem for four more years?  The same people who wanted to give an automatic bid to the NESCAC?  Is it such hard work that they can't go through the bid/selection process every year? 

Dave-
It's not just about the money for the World Cup or Olympics.  They wouldn't send the World Cup to South Africa or the Winter Olympics to Russia if this was the case.  They take it around the world because of the very notion of it being a global event.  They explicitly attempt to take it to different continents where they haven't been recently. 

The game is currently lost in all the big cities.  I really don't think anyone will miss the local Salem media coverage if it moves out.  Would you at least admit that the attendance might be higher in a big city?

I doubt you've been to many games in domes with 10,000 fans.  Doesn't look great on TV, but then no one is really impressed with the numbers of fans in the stands at Salem when the accidentally flip to the game on ESPNU.  You're not going to feel alone in a stadium with 10,000 fans there no matter how many empty seats there are.  In a dome the noise level is significantly higher than it would be in an outdoor stadium with 10,000 seats.

"There is a LOT that goes on behind the scenes that makes this work."  ----what exactly about a big city makes you doubt they could handle it?  A bigger city means more there are automatically more volunteers, community service activities, city support, practice facilities and hotel rooms available.

bottom line, I have no confidence in the championship committee to evaluate/solicit bids.  They've proven incompetent in so many other ways, I can't see how they would somehow be experts at this part of their job.

[jknezek]

Well Salem (and the ODAC) will be hosting not just football, but basketball and some softball as well. It's pretty clear that Salem embraces D3 events and has for a long time. The NCAA has a lot of faith in the community to put together well-run events. That is probably the most important point to the NCAA. Time to put this topic to rest for a while. If you don't like Salem (and as someone who went to W&L I don't exactly vouch for the joys of the Roanoke/Salem Metro area) so be it. That's where the game is going to be for 5 years or so.

If you want a change, better start calling around to your favorite venue and have them start thinking about putting a bid together. If you aren't willing to do that much, then it's time to stop complaining...

[Pat Coleman]

Is it such hard work that they can't go through the bid/selection process every year? 

Considering that the NCAA as a whole, for dozens of sports across all divisions, announced host sites several years out, that's probably your answer right there.

[KitchenSink]

Salem does a nice job.  At least, they seem to as I have only made one trip out there - though I have spoken to team people and one referee who have vouched for the program there.

I would like to see the Stagg Bowl moved a bit further west (Ohio?  Indiana?) for purely selfish reasons (easier for a Wisconsin guy to attend).  I agree the current format (medium size city and stadium) is the right fit.

[smedindy]

It's such a logistical puzzle that once the NCAA finds a host site that provides excellent logistics, volunteers and venues, there's no reason to go away from it. That's one thing off the list that they don't have to worry about.

There's a reason that D1 men's and women's basketball always have something going on in Indianapolis - and it's not just because the NCAA lives there. In fact, the NCAA moved there because of the volunteer and venue infrastructure. The Indiana Sports Corp. does a phenomenal job. I've been inside that machinery working at the Basketball World Championships. It's definitely a community effort.

[HScoach]

Salem, the ODAC and all involved do a GREAT job with the Stagg.   My only complaint is the inconsistent weather.   I've been to 16 of them following Mount and the chance of the weather (wind, rain, ice, snow) impacting the game or travel is just as likely (or more) than it is being a nice day.    If you could get 50 degrees, dry and calm in Salem 80+% of the time it would be perfect.     

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Do we have any idea who the people are who are rubber stamping Salem for four more years?  The same people who wanted to give an automatic bid to the NESCAC?  Is it such hard work that they can't go through the bid/selection process every year?

The championship committee for each sport makes their recommendations, but then the overall championship committee and above make the final decisions. It doesn't have to go by way of the recommendation and sometimes hasn't.

It's not just about the money for the World Cup or Olympics.  They wouldn't send the World Cup to South Africa or the Winter Olympics to Russia if this was the case.  They take it around the world because of the very notion of it being a global event.  They explicitly attempt to take it to different continents where they haven't been recently.

But you are missing a MAJOR point here... cities and countries BID on this! In fact, when the US has had several cities interested in the Olympics, they have had a bid process just internally in the country... pick the best bid and then present that bid to the international body. Then a city is picked. If Russia or Brazil or other counties didn't bid ... they wouldn't get the opportunities to do this. And part of that bid process is volunteers, facilities (present or to be built), infrastructure, support, etc. And locations are turned down if the IOC (or even the USOC) doesn't feel a city or location is actually capabile of hosting the Olympics, World Cup, etc. This is also true for the Super Bowl and other events like them.

They move the games around because of these criteria and bids. In fact, the Olympics or the World Cup have not been in the Southern Hemesphere not because the bids aren't coming from there (they are)... but because they haven't been good enough.

This holds true with the NCAA. We know they are willing to move around bids due to interest and the ability to host. However, they also aren't willing to move bids around if certain criteria isn't met and if that bar keeps being raised by the likes of Salem and such... so be it.

So have a location put a bid in... but realize that ultimately the NCAA will decide what will happen.

The game is currently lost in all the big cities.  I really don't think anyone will miss the local Salem media coverage if it moves out.  Would you at least admit that the attendance might be higher in a big city?

Admit based on what? I won't bet that the attendance will be better. It is a fact that has to be proven not given. People think that moving a game to a location with more people around it means attendance will grow. How many football bowl games have you seen in locations that have high populations, but the place is barely half full. How about Jacksonville which constantly closes off sections of its stadium because they can't sell the tickets and have to close the sections to make sure they don't have the games blacked out. There is nothing to say attendance will grow especially if you consider the fact a city may have no interest in the game for whatever reason.

I doubt you've been to many games in domes with 10,000 fans.  Doesn't look great on TV, but then no one is really impressed with the numbers of fans in the stands at Salem when the accidentally flip to the game on ESPNU.  You're not going to feel alone in a stadium with 10,000 fans there no matter how many empty seats there are.  In a dome the noise level is significantly higher than it would be in an outdoor stadium with 10,000 seats.

I've been to many a stadium where games are being played that make the building look empty. From high school to even the pros. The atmosphere doesn't necessarily improve. And from the stand point of standing on the sideline... when 10k fills a 1/7th of the stadium... it looks empty, no matter how they fill in the seats. Bigger is not always better. Sure... a dome can add to the noise because they either pump in more audio or the dome causes an echo... but the ONLY reason Division I basketball is played in places like domes is not because the games look better there... but because they draw enough people for those places not to look empty. If they saw a drop in attendance or didn't have the interest... they wouldn't be in domes or stadiums that large.

"There is a LOT that goes on behind the scenes that makes this work."  ----what exactly about a big city makes you doubt they could handle it?  A bigger city means more there are automatically more volunteers, community service activities, city support, practice facilities and hotel rooms available.

What you aren't considering is the simple fact that there is a lot more to do in a big city and more things to volunteer for and take your time. Sure, the numbers and data say there are more volunteers, but it isn't a community thing the bigger the city. People have more places to volunteer, decreasing the number of places people want to volunteer for. And a big city doesn't necessarily mean city support and hotel rooms and practice facilities. In fact, there may be a bigger competition for them.

Take for example Baltimore, where I have lived outside and worked in since arriving for college in '95, the city got behind the Indy Racing League and in my opinion had some amazing races here along with ALMS the last three years... but they ran into a MAJOR problem in the future. They are hosting Ohio State-Navy football game and the American Legion convention in the city right before and over the same weekend. When they looked at other weekends for the race, they couldn't find ones that fit because the dates are taken by other events. There aren't enough hotel rooms (in a city that keeps building hotels), there isn't enough resources to support it all, there aren't enough volunteers for all of the events, etc., etc., etc. Baltimore is 26th biggest TV market in the country... pretty close to Washington, DC (the two combined I think would be the third largest TV market?) and they have a lot that goes on in the city. If you are trying to squeeze a football game at the Division III level into this market or any similiar in size, you are competing against everything else that wants to be here and thus there are not enough hotel rooms (also, you can't guarantee how many will be used in the first place) and volunteers will be spread thin. Big cities are not going to close out other opportunities for a Division III event (they will for a Division I basketball Final Four!), so you are going to be competing for a lot of attention.

And trust me... this includes the media. There are so many resources they have as well.

bottom line, I have no confidence in the championship committee to evaluate/solicit bids.  They've proven incompetent in so many other ways, I can't see how they would somehow be experts at this part of their job.

You haven't proven you are capable of selecting a site either as you have never designated a city, a stadium, who would run the championship, who would volunteer, where the community service would be (by the way, this is something Salem started doing and is now starting to become a staple of every championship city), etc. Make your own proposal as a "what if" and then we can talk about what the championship committee is capable of or not. (As an aside, I can't remember if it is the championship committee that actually made that mistake with the NESCAC... or the liason and the NCAA that made the assumption first.)