Should the Stagg Bowl find a better site or stay in Salem, Va.

[Ralph Turner]

UWWwhoot is right about Coppell (kah'  pell").  Unless Coppell was able to boost attendance with a Battle of the High School Bands,  I seriously doubt it. Many of the big high school bands have gone 3-4 games deep into the postseason by now and are tired of it.

Great air accommodations and plenty of hotels, but the event might get lost, even to a big semifinal game at Texas Stadium.  I noted earlier that Southlake Carroll and Euless Trinity played a 2nd round game before 46,000 fans at Texas Stadium.

Given MUC vs St Johns, most DFW fans might prefer Southlake Carroll vs Plano West.

[Gray Fox]

Given MUC vs St Johns, most DFW fans might prefer Southlake Carroll vs Plano West.

So true.

[K-Mack]

UWWwhoot is right about Coppell (kah'  pell").  Unless Coppell was able to boost attendance with a Battle of the High School Bands,  I seriously doubt it. Many of the big high school bands have gone 3-4 games deep into the postseason by now and are tired of it.

Great air accommodations and plenty of hotels, but the event might get lost, even to a big semifinal game at Texas Stadium.  I noted earlier that Southlake Carroll and Euless Trinity played a 2nd round game before 46,000 fans at Texas Stadium.

Given MUC vs St Johns, most DFW fans might prefer Southlake Carroll vs Plano West.

Southlake's coach just took the North Texas job too.

Methinks Texas might have other things to consider.

But best of luck. I wonder why Coppell wants it and whose idea it was.

[K-Mack]

As I like to say, the worst excuse for doing something a certain way is "we've always done it this way."

So do you normally fix things that aren't broken? Because that's one of those phrases that sounds cool but doesn't always apply.

When I drive to work, for instance, a good reason to go the way I always go is because I've always gone that way. It's short, the traffic is managable, and I know it gets me there.

Salem is the same way. No guarantee that some other place couldn't do it better, and it would be fine for them to try ... but hosting this thing is a lot harder than it looks, you need the right core of volunteers, the right venue and the right city to give it enough shine without it getting lost among big pro and big-college games that same weekend. It takes a lot of love to put it on and do it well, because there's not enough cash in it to do it for the money.

It could leave Salem and flop, you know?

[K-Mack]

Go for Vegas.... they have more $$$ than the NCAA's.  So dropping some coin on sponsoring a football game would be easy.  You'd get the LL planning mancations to Vegas in June.... couples (Me) planning to head out. Golf, gambling, shopping etc.,

How do you explain Salem, VA  to a significant other? 

She: What's there to do?

Me: Not much.  Wanna go to a bonfire?

Point.

Although "not much to do" means you focus on the game.

And frankly, I don't need to be dragged to all the big-name outlets, shopping hot spots and spas when I'm trying to get my tailgate on, y'nahmean?

[Ralph Turner]

...

But best of luck. I wonder why Coppell wants it and whose idea it was.

I wonder if it is the convention business at Gaylord Texas, just around the corner.

[K-Mack]

maybe it's just me, but the line for driving/flying is around 400-500 miles. And when you're talking about a quick weekend like the stagg bowl, then flying has it's advantages. Plus, with christmas the next weekend, flight deals should be available. I'll take 6-7 hours total airport to airport trip time (and for most probably quicker) vs. 8 straight hours in a car anyday. And a 500 mile drive is going to cost you about $180 (at a $0.36/mile burden on your vehicle, that's more than just gas) what's a plane ticket gonna cost $220?

So I'm the other guy with Johnny U that wants the game in Florida and to make an event out of it - add the 2 other championship games and/or have a conference, clinics etc. Not that salem is doing anything wrong, but if you put all that together and threw in the beach, I'm in.

And if the mean ole UMASS fans ask "who the hell is mount union anyway?" then TELL THEM!! Educate them. Make some friends who just like to watch football.

Gro,
I have a line for driving too, I'd say four hours in each direction or no more than 6-8 total, one-way, if you're staying a couple days. I might have done some crazier solo drives (pulled the entire D.C. to Montreal leg once), but they sucked grand royally.

I fly a bunch and don't check baggage, and I'm fascinated (still) by flying, and I still prefer to drive usually. I guess because you don't have to wait on anyone else to get going, etc.

But it is nice to kick back and read/bop to the beat rather than pull shifts behind the wheel too, so ...

All I'm saying about the Super-event is that the advantages (slightly increased attendance, making friends who just like football, more stuff to do) don't necessarily outweigh the benefits of being the only game in town (more available hotel rooms and shorter waits when going out to eat, all local media attention focused on our game, etc.)

Plus, a I-AA stadium of 25 Gs is not for us, at least not yet. Mount Union and Whitewater don't draw 10,000 a game for homecoming or their biggest rivals.

FWIW.

[K-Mack]

Dallas weather in December can be very unpredictable and you would not likely get any local media coverage.  If you aren't the Dallas Cowboys, or maybe the Longhorns, you don't get coverage.  You can hide 8-10,000 fans very comfortably in Texas Stadium.

Or you can play the Stagg in one of the Texas High School football palaces, like you find at Southlake Carroll High School, or the functional Plano Independent School District's Clark Field or another similar facility.

Keep it someplace where it is a big deal and fans can drive there, like Salem VA.  It is on its way to becoming a special place for D3 fans.

I don't disagree about Dallas weather but if you want to bury the Stagg Bowl with a maximum of 5,000 attendance, keep it in Salem.

You should come to one first before you trash it.

I apologize for the use of the term bury; I'm not meaning to trash Salem or diminish the work and effort that others have put into the Stagg Bowl there.  On the issue of attendance, however, am I wrong?  Is there any chance the Stagg Bowl, played on a stand alone basis in Salem, VA, will draw more than 5 or maybe 6 thousand for a game? 

I'm not likely to go to a Stagg Bowl in Salem unless my team is playing in it.  I think the same holds true for everyone else except you, some ESPN people and a few locals - which is precisely the point I am making. 

So how would that be different in Coppell, Texas, Minneapolis, Evansville, Ind., Florida or any of the other places that have been suggested?

At least the Canton backer made a really good case for how it would be attended and how the volunteer model is already in place (plus we have the hook-up at Massillon, call Waynesburg!)

"I'm not likely to go to a Stagg Bowl in Salem unless my team is playing in it."

That's probably a fact across D3, and with fans in general ... and has little to do with Salem. A lot of people would probably consider it no matter who's playing if it was a day trip away from home. Otherwise, there would have to be a real reason to want to go.

What makes you think that the number of random fans it has in Salem would be greater anywhere else, besides Ohio? At least Salem locals know what the game is now, and have the experience of following it.

And what's so important about going from 5,000 to maybe 7,500 in attendance anyway? The key groups to impress are the teams and their fans. Anything else is gravy.

I can see why it would be fair to rotate it to some other more-westerly but still-centrally-located place similar to Salem, but in the Central Time Zone maybe ... but as someone mentioned, there is a pretty high standard that Salem has set that the new city would have to meet.

And for the record, attendance spiked to almost 10,000 when Bridgewater (1 hour away) was in it. Certainly having it closer to Mount Union could boost attendance numbers.

But look at the history of the game, too. It was tried in Kings Island, Ohio. It was in Bradenton, Fla. It was in Phenix City, Ala. The attendance numbers from those Stagg Bowls aren't dissimilar to the ones today, and D3 was better-attended overall in the 70s and 80s.

[K-Mack]

Sorry to belabor the point and dominate this thread, but EXACTLY! (see below)

I watched the Montana-Massachusetts D1 Playoff Division semi-final last night.  Great game.  Glad I wasn't in the cold!

I had no interest in attending that game.  I would much rather channel-surf the game.

I have no interest in attending the Championships in Chattanooga next week.

I think that I speak for a bunch of net-savvy 21st Century sports fans.

Let me select from the 14 choices that I have on the cable and internet systems that I know of, as I select the one that hits my fancy, this minute.

I think that the recurrent theme on these boards has been the enthusiasm that the Stagg has found from the locals in Salem, Va.  We cannot buy that.  It is a 10-hour drive one way for 80% of D3-dom.  When that magic moment arrives for the fortunate finalists, most can stop what they are doing and drive to Salem.

I watched the MUC-SJF game/video feed, a great game in Alliance.  I decided to pass on the UWW-Wesley game.  Next week, the magic of 21st Century communications will let me see the Stagg Bowl, even tho' I am on call.

If the key irreproducible factor is the local support from Salem, why move it!

I think the question here really is this: If you move the Stagg Bowl from Salem, will the other Division III fans make up for the potential for diminished local support?

That's what you need to overcome, I think.

BTW, I don't believe for one second the rounded attendance numbers from Alabama and Florida in the early Stagg Bowls, other than the game West Georgia played in.

There are no significant numbers of general D3 fans in warm weather venues.  Official attendance at the HSU-UMHB 1802; the UMHB W&J game 1950.  Those were during the first 2 weekends of the Texas high school football playoffs. Okay, but not stellar.

Salem, Va is as far south and east (for the sake of weather) as you can go away from the D3 football heartlands in Ohio, Wisconsin, Minnesota, New Jersey and upstate New York.

The attendance at the MUC/SJF game is not available on the MUC web site (yet).

[K-Mack]

I agree with fins.  I'm not knocking salem but I personnaly think if they put the game back in Bradenton, FL it would easily pull just as many fans as recent Salem bowls and probably more.  Bradenton has a lot to do in and around that area. Fans can fly (10 hour drive to salem, or 6 hours of airport time) to Tampa, Orlando, or Sarasota. It's the week before christmas so air fare deals can be found.  The last time the Stagg was in Florida the internet wasn't as prevalent as it is now, so no d3.com and extended post patterns fan base, and most importantly no orbitz or travelocity (how did people go anywhere back then?? I'm serious).

Here's to future stagg bowl mancations in the sunshine state.

I always thought it was more expensive to fly during the holidays.

But as we know, it's not about fan flights ... the NCAA would have to pick up the tab to send both teams to Florida. ... It might be a wink-wink thing, but I bet any city within 500 miles of Alliance, Ohio has an unofficial advantage over cities outside that radius.

[Jonny Utah]

One more point.........

you could even throw a 1-A lesser bowl game in there like a BC/Navy game or something like that...

[K-Mack]

One more point....

you could even throw a 1-A lesser bowl game in there like a BC/Navy game or something like that...

You could.

Why would this be a good thing again?

[Jonny Utah]

One more point....

you could even throw a 1-A lesser bowl game in there like a BC/Navy game or something like that...

You could.

Why would this be a good thing again?

Well let me start over.

What I would want (which might not be able to happen and I could understand why) is what lacrosse does.  That is to have a huge event on a weekend with a few championship games where thousands of people turn it into an event that keeps getting bigger and bigger every year.  Now I understand that a d3football game isnt going to get 50+ thousand or whatever d1 and d3 lacrosse gets, but if you turn it into a weekend where multiple games are played, I think you can have more interest, fans and money in the long run.

Again, I can see how lacrosse is more of a cult, but I believe that small college football can achieve some of the same success that lax does.

Add a d1 smaller bowl game there and that could be something.

And imagine if d1 goes to a playoff system and they have their championship game the same place/week?!?!

[K-Mack]

maybe it's just me, but the line for driving/flying is around 400-500 miles. And when you're talking about a quick weekend like the stagg bowl, then flying has it's advantages. Plus, with christmas the next weekend, flight deals should be available. I'll take 6-7 hours total airport to airport trip time (and for most probably quicker) vs. 8 straight hours in a car anyday. And a 500 mile drive is going to cost you about $180 (at a $0.36/mile burden on your vehicle, that's more than just gas) what's a plane ticket gonna cost $220?

So I'm the other guy with Johnny U that wants the game in Florida and to make an event out of it - add the 2 other championship games and/or have a conference, clinics etc. Not that salem is doing anything wrong, but if you put all that together and threw in the beach, I'm in.

And if the mean ole UMASS fans ask "who the hell is mount union anyway?" then TELL THEM!! Educate them. Make some friends who just like to watch football.

gro,

     You make some valid points. Not sure where you can get a $220 plane ticket though. I've never had one that cheap out of Roanoke. Course, I don't usually fly the week before Christmas. Your point is still well taken. I suppose cheaper air fare might be a plus of moving to a larger city too but I still say D3 would get lost in a larger city.
     Well, we have beaten this topic to a pulp. Guess we will just  have to leave it up to the powers that be. But for now... GO PURPLE...GO SALEM...GO D3!!! 

Well no matter where you have it 80%? of the fans will be fans of those two schools and still mostly former players, families, and relatives and friends of the players at that.  So your going to get 3000-5000 if you put the game in Bangor, Maine or Miami, Florida.  Then your going to get maybe 1000 people from the area to go.  But like you ask yourself, would I go if its here or there?

Am I going to Salem Va ever to see a team other than Ithaca play?  No

Am I going to Miami, Fla ever to see a team other than Ithaca play? Maybe, that would be a fun trip without the football

Can I drive to Salem or Fla? No

Can I fly into Mia for around $250? Yes

Can I fly into Salem/Roanoke for around $250? No

Would I go to Salem to see 3 football games? No

Would I go to Fla to see 3 football games? Probably at least once. 

I agree with most of this, on a base level anyway. You have a set number of fans that are going either way, and at least half of them haven't bought tickets or made reservations until a week or two before the game.

You have x number of local walk-ups no matter where you are.

So what you're saying is there's a group of die-hard D3 fans that would pay to go to the game if there were a reason to go besides just the game.

How many of those would you guess there are? You, me and the people reading this thread. How many more?

How much do you think a warm weather locale would boost attendance? 50 people? 500?1,000? 5,000?

What is the number (in your opinion here, I'm not asking you to function like a D3 official) to make it worth the change?

I'm trying to figure out how important you think the attendance figure is, aside from all the support and travel costs for the NCAA and all that stuff.

Because if there's one thing we know, it's that if there's enough money in it, anything's possible.

I'd like to hear thoughts on this.

Because Pat and I briefly discussed this week taking the off-the-field event for general D3 fans at the Stagg Bowl to the next level next year.

[K-Mack]

And imagine if d1 goes to a playoff system

OK, now you're just getting out of control.