FB: Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference

[Adam Sayer]

Here is the deal with the Big 10...IT STINKS, the end. Penn State's offense has shown up for 1 game this year aganst a team who was half-way decent and that was Wisconsin. For Penn State to win, they will have to score another 27 points and even in Happy Valley, that isn't happening against OSU's defense. It will be close, but I see a 20-10 OSU victory. OSU has the best chance to go undefeated of the unbeatens. The Big 10 is THAT bad.

Dog OSU's schedule this year but the fact is, they can't help their conference schedule, and other than this year, they make it a point to schedule a tough non conference game. Texas in 2005/2006, USC in 2008/2009, Miami (FL) in 2010/2011, and Cal in 2012/2013.

Who knows, with the way teams are going, Ohio State could be the best team. Oklahoma lost to Colorado, Cal lost to Oregon State, LSU lost to Kentucky, who up to this point had only 1 win against decent competition, a 4-3 louisville team who beat UC but lost to Syracuse. USC lost to Stanford, but also has 2 other close games, Boston College is 7-0, but has close wins against Notre Dame and UMASS...not exactly quality competition.

[altor]

I can only think that these rules were first developed when ties were still a possible outcome, since I cannot find a time when the ICAC or HCAC didn't play a complete round robin.

I got to thinking later...the AQ has been a fairly recent thing (1999?) and the overtime rules were developed shortly before that (1996?).  So even this isn't a good reason for why the rules are the way they are.

Or, altor, they are tiebreakers used for all of the conference's sports, which is a common occurrence.

A good thought, but not the case.  Football is the only HCAC team sport where the AQ is not determined by a post-season tournament.  Also, to make things even sillier, the tie-breaking rules for seeding the Women's Basketball Tournament are different from those for the Men's Basketball Tournament.

OK, I'm done ranting now.  Let's get back to analyzing real football.

[nittanybacker]

Do you think MSJ will be motivated for the rest of the season?  I think that it is very hard to motivate players in the program that the only way to judge if you are successful is if you go to the playoffs.  I think that it is going to be a tall order for Hubie to keep the team focus. 

[Adam Sayer]

It won't be hard. The reality is their only shot at a playoff spot is to win out plus you have the TMC game...which may be enough to motivate both teams from here on out...even though we all know you're supposed to "take it one game at a time."

[altor]

And a 2nd qualifier is not as out-of-the-question as some will have you believe.  As much as people throw it around this forum, "past performance by the conference in the tournament" is not in the selection/seeding criteria.

As much as it seems like it, Franklin got the short end last year based on other things besides the HCAC's performance in past tournaments.  It's not like they were passed up for an 8-2 team somewhere.  Two 9-1 teams had to stay home.  Unfortunately, Franklin was one of them and not necessarily because of anything they could help.

If Wabash beats Witt in week 7 instead of losing by 2, Franklin has now beaten a conference champion and probably gets the nod.  Bethel upset St. John's in week 11, essentially stealing a Pool C bid for the MIAC.  MSJ didn't help things either.  If they win over TMC, they probably play a home game in week 12 as well as making Franklin's only loss to a team that went 10-0.

All that said, everybody in the HCAC should root for Hope and Olivet (and Alma...Alma would be good) in the MIAA so that whatever team(s) represent this conference in the tournament don't have to make the dreaded trip to Alliance.

[victorybell_57]

I have been reading some comments about the previous HC runs in the playoffs not being so successful. Let's look at their history there, shall we.

One run against Mt. Union, not a good draw and was handled easily. No excuses, just got outplayed. Beat a team from Michigan for their only playoff win when Leonard was there. Aside from that, I have heard from some HC supporters that the problem was not from the Leonard offense, it was from stopping other teams. Scoring 30+ points in a playoff game should be enough to win, in most cases. Even after Leonard left HC, they still made the playoffs, only to lose a wild shootout. I think Deitz threw for an obscene amount of yards and scored a bundle of points, only to lose again. It's hard to blame Peebles for that loss either.

This is just my opinion, but I think they could have done better in the playoffs if they could have stopped some people. I am sure this goes with most teams though. You have to score, and stop people.

I really thought MSJ would have made a run the past few years in the playoffs with their D, but that's neither here nor there now.

Good luck to FC. 

[KYGrizzly]

I believe this is a scenario where rule #3 would decide the conference championship.

Go back to the 2005 season and change the outcome of one game, if Franklin would have beaten MSJ there would have been a three way tie with records of 4-2. Below would have been the conference standings:

MSJ       4 – 2, Wins Manchester, Defiance, Bluffton, Anderson – Losses Franklin, Hanover
Defiance      4 – 2, Wins Anderson, Hanover, Franklin, Bluffton – Losses MSJ, Manchester
Franklin       4 – 2, Wins MSJ, Manchester, Bluffton, Hanover – Losses Defiance, Anderson
Hanover      3 – 3, Wins Anderson, MSJ, Manchester – Losses Defiance, Franklin, Bluffton
Anderson    3 – 3, Wins Franklin, Bluffton, Manchester – Losses MSJ, Defiance, Hanover
Bluffton       2 – 4, Wins Manchester, Hanover – Losses MSJ, Franklin, Defiance, Anderson
Manchester 1 – 5, Wins Defiance – Losses MSJ, Franklin, Hanover, Anderson, Bluffton

Tiebreaker #1 – Still tie MSJ beat Defiance, Defiance beat Franklin, Franklin beat MSJ on to
                          Tiebreaker #2.
Tiebreaker #2 – How the tied teams fared against next team in conference standings. Since
                          Hanover and Anderson both are 3 – 3, I am assuming that you would use
                          tiebreaker #1 to decide the fourth place team which would be Hanover for
                          beating Anderson. Both Franklin and Defiance beat Hanover and MSJ lost to
                          Hanover. That would Knock MSJ out of consideration, on to Tiebreaker #3.
Tiebreaker #3 – Number of conference wins by the conference opponents you defeated.
                          Defiance would be conference champions with 12 wins to Franklin's 10.

One more scenario.

Same 2005 season and change the outcome of two games, if Franklin would have beaten MSJ and Hanover would have beaten Franklin there would have been a three way tie with records of 4-2. Below would have been the conference standings:

MSJ       4 – 2, Wins Manchester, Defiance, Bluffton, Anderson – Losses Franklin, Hanover
Defiance      4 – 2, Wins Anderson, Hanover, Franklin, Bluffton – Losses MSJ, Manchester
Hanover      4 – 2, Wins Anderson, MSJ, Manchester, Franklin – Losses Defiance, Bluffton
Anderson    3 – 3, Wins Franklin, Bluffton, Manchester – Losses MSJ, Defiance, Hanover
Franklin       3 – 3, Wins MSJ, Manchester, Bluffton, – Losses Defiance, Anderson, Hanover
Bluffton       2 – 4, Wins Manchester, Hanover – Losses MSJ, Franklin, Defiance, Anderson
Manchester 1 – 5, Wins Defiance – Losses MSJ, Franklin, Hanover, Anderson, Bluffton

Tiebreaker #1 – Still tie MSJ beat Defiance, Defiance beat Franklin, Hanover beat MSJ on to
                          Tiebreaker #2.
Tiebreaker #2 – How the tied teams fared against next team in conference standings. Since
                          Franklin and Anderson both are 3 – 3, I am assuming that you would use
                          tiebreaker #1 to decide the fourth place team which would be Anderson for
                          beating Franklin. All three teams beat Anderson on to Tiebreaker #3.
Tiebreaker #3 – Number of conference wins by the conference opponents you defeated.
                          Defiance would be conference champions with 12 wins to Hanover's 11 and
                          MSJ's 10.

Sorry for the long post but I just thought that something similar to this happened in the past for the rules to be put in there. It is also possible that I interpeted the rules wrong which I have done in the past.

[SaintsFAN]

victory,

you have to run the ball in the playoffs to keep the defense fresh and ready to make plays.  I'm not blaming the offense, but you have to admit that the playoff games come down to who can run and the ball and play good defense. 

Thats why you rarely see spread teams in the Stagg Bowl..

[dc_has_been]

Regardless who gets in the playoffs it will be hard to even get a high seed in our region.  Our region is loaded w/ teams: Mount, Capital, Wheaton, Wabash, and so on.  Though I still think any of our top teams can run w/ some of those previously mentioned, but whom ever would have to play the perfect game where everything goes their way. 

[SaintsFAN]

has_been,

Though I normally agree, its my opinoin that Capital and MUC are on a different level than most of D3, not just the HCAC. . . I also believe that Franklin can compete with Wabash (we've seen this already) and also Wheaton (this year because of their injury problems)

[SaintsFAN]

UNREAL!!!

after beating Mount St. Joe ON THE ROAD, Franklin is still not better than MSJ according to the AFCA.

Boys this just goes to show you to disregard that poll (I know MSJ uses it on their website) and only go by D3.com's poll. 

[KYGrizzly]

Have to agree with you there. At least they increased their points from 7 last week to 22.

[Adam Sayer]

No one's complaining that LSU is still ranked ahead of Kentucky? That's the way it works in polls and it happens all the time. In the D3football poll, MSJ and FC were closer than they were in the AFCA. In the AFCA, MSJ was ranked, whereas FC was at the bottom end of the 'others.'

It won't matter at the end of the year as long as FC keeps winning. I think MSJ is going to have their fair share of close-calls (i.e. November 10).

[altor]

KYGrizzly:
You missed the second sentence of Rule #2:  "Continue down in the conference standings until the tie is broken."  In your first scenario, you continue on to games against Anderson (then Bluffton, then Manchester, if needed) before moving on to #3.  Defiance beat Anderson, Franklin lost.  In your second scenario, after checking results against Anderson, you move on to Franklin (then Bluffton, then Machester).

I know I said I was done ranting, but you bring up two more things (1 directly, 1 indirectly).  First, do you break ties at lower places first?  Second, when one team is eliminated in a multi-team tie, do you move on to the next rule or start over with #1?  The Men's Basketball tiebreaking rules address these things.  The Football tiebreakers do not (at least, not as published on the website).

[cave2bens]

Hate to break up the "best of times/worst of times" scenarios of the Grizzly and Lion posters, but some caution needs to exercised here.  There's still a snake in the HCAC woodpile capable of biting either team.

Granted, DC doesn't have the D studs from the past couple of years, but Vetter seems to have discovered a groove (finally), the receivers are top-notch, and suddenly Thornton has emerged as a running back.  Just don't want to see anyone looking ahead, ala Manchester or Wooster (almost) last weekend.