FB: Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference

[Adam Sayer]

Yes, stretch would be included.

One key point that Gibbs talked about, which I though interesting was the final step in zone blocking for his O-linemen. By the third step, the o-line was working to the 2nd level. If there was a zone combo block, the person who was staying on the d-lineman and the person moving to the LB level were determined by the third step. This coincided with the HB's steps. By the 2nd step, the HB was to have made his read (outside-in, inside-out based on if the play was in/out zone) and by his third step he committed and was running upfield. This means that the O-line and HB were running upfield at the same moment. A) this limited confusion by the HB on where to run, B) the HB knew where his blockers would be, C) when your running downhill in a hurry, there are not many negative plays, and D) the HB has fewer fumbles. He gets the ball at the 1.5 step and his decision is made by the 2nd step. No dancing...get the ball and run. The QB steps, HB steps, and aiming points don't change. It's repeated over and over again. Now his O-line had different rules for different situations and based on some word (force, Ace, whatever) there were different rules because the FB was involved.

The guy from Minnasota had some great points, but the one thing I disagreed with was the fact, he said the line never had to communicate. In my opinion thats BS. I don't know everything and I sure don't know more than this guy, but in my slightly less than expert opinion, an O-line needs to communicate, talk, tell the man next to you the play if it means everyone is on the same page. A silent offensive line is a dead offensive line.

Personally (I failed to completely answer the question earlier...I appologize) I think you can get away (if you're a zone believer like myself) with 5 run plays. In/Out Zone, Power, Sweep, Counter, and a play for the fullback (FB Dive, Trap, etc.). If you want to throw in a reverse or read the playside DE with the QB on zone to add some misdirection that's fine too. Just keep it simple.

It's my belief that an offense needs 4 things to be successful:
1. A set of 4-5 run plays that can be ran against any front and can be ran perfectly. If you get beat, it's not because of a missed assignment or improper tech.
2. Varying formations which can support the 4-5 run plays. The system I am using to set a formation requires very little memorization, but gives you a plethora of different sets.
3. Play action passes that can be ran from every run play you run.

Notice, I didn't list a vertyical passing game. If you run the ball successfully, can complete a high percentage of short, play action passes, you will be more likely to sustain drives and drive LB's nuts. Force the defense to play tight and defend the short stuff...then the long stuff can/should be like backyard football. You may be stopped every now and then, but if you connect on 40-50% of your third downs, you'll be successful. This idea also relies on the defense to work (ala Ohio State in 2002). I think you need a verticle game, but being successful on verticle passing routes is a direct relation to being able to gain 4-6 yards on run/playaction pass routes.

Again...all this is my opinion. I don't claim to know everything. Guys like the ones at the clinic know more than I can ever hope to, but I'm just here to help.

[victorybell_57]

i am glad you guys have brought up the third step on outside zone. the coach at rutgers has preached the third step as well. i have heard some coaches say "on the fifth step you should know if you can overtake the block." sorry, 5 steps is way too long.

also, i have been looking for info (schemes, clinic talks, tapes, etc) on gibbs and the ol coach at wisconsin. i have come up empty thus far. any advice?

sayer, you sound like you know a lot more than you give yourself credit for. the biggest problems i have come into in offensive theory is this:

a.) passing formations and schemes have nothing to do with the run game (ala, pro-I run game, shotgun wide pass game).
b.) passing game is different and confusing fromt the variety of formations you run the ball out of. for instance, the classic post, dig, drag play is run the same from every formation. this puts the tight end on the drag, or the slot, of the backside slot, or whoever the second receiver in is. it's a great way to confuse otherwise talented players.
c.) going gang busters in terms of run game razzle dazzle, but a boring and non-effective passing game. i mean running triple option, midline, every form of trap (veer/influence/gut/long trap), power, iso, wrap series, inside but no outside zone, speed option, counter trap (but using the guard and tight end to trap in a 50 and tackle and center vs a 40) and the shovel pass. passing includes hitches, crossing routes, and 4 verticals with no screens (head coach didn't like throwing behind the los), no draws (head coach didn't like passive running plays), and the only play action was a counter boot with the fb in the flat and no te crosser (head coach just wanted to hit the fb and not confuse the qb. all other receivers just ran off).
d.) running the option with a qb who can't decide, practicing the trap all week and then calling inside zone 20 times in the game, running inside zone all year with no outside zone. it's ok, the next year they went all outside zone with no inside zone to counter it out.
e.) not demanding the same from the skills and the linemen. "you can't yell at skills, they get their feelings hurt and won't perform." i don't think you should ever let a skill hold you hostage because you don't want to hurt his feelings. not that we are trying to hurt feelings, sayer knows what i am talking about.

i apologize for this rambling tirade, i have experienced things that will forever change how i let somebody dictate the play selection. if it were up to me, i would hammer the two zones ( i have 2 great inside compliments that make iz even better) with some form of power or counter trey (depending on the week). i believe it is far easier to run the zones and get good at them, and for laughs run the ctr trey, power, iso, one back power, sprint draws on a week to week basis with their compliment play actions to keep the defense off-balance. sayer, i would be curious to see what you are working on over there.

[victorybell_57]

oh, i forgot about this one. running plays the wrong way and then stating that that's how you want to see it because you don't like it the other way with no further explanation. that sort of pissing match really helps nobody and just shows your ignorance. if you want to run a play somebody else does, just copy it and run it that way. don't change it because you think you are smarter.

[70_dc_alum]

i was never big on communication on the line during run plays.  the only time i would talk on the line (other than Smack) was to call out a blitz on a pass or to screw with the D-line thinking i was calling somehting out.  that assumes you gel as a line.  if you have time togheter you should not have to talk, all you are doing is validating at that point and i never liked doing it because no matter how much you tried to disguise it i always felt i was giving something up.

[Adam Sayer]

I disagree only because of the mentality set forth for me in HS. We were told by our coach that he didn't care if the defense knew the play. He felt that if we were all on the same page and everyone knew their assigment, the defense could know the play and count and still not stop us.  If it took me to say to the guy next to me "We're running trap, you're blocking down on the LB" that's what I did. That's where I also started to develop my theory that there is no such thing as a bad play call, just poor execution. In HS we were expected to run the ball against 8-9 man fronts. Why? We didn't exactly have a QB and playing in our league, everyone ran the ball. It became a pride thing for me and other o-linemn. We carried the mentality that you bring whoever you want, we will still kick your a$$ up and down the field. That didn't always happen. Even in college, Coach Mac told Hamrock to audible whenever he saw certain fronts (8 man, bear, 70, etc.) Finally we simply told him, "Hey, we can block this" and we would call out our blocking. We blocked our sweeps on the run, changed blocking schemes at the line, and were clear about where we were going. Hell, I think Tepee announced one game, "I'm kicking 54's a$$." Again, it was a pride thing. We felt that we were better and the defense could know but wouldn't stop it. I realize life and football doesn't always work that way, but I would rather have my kids get beat because the other guy is stronger, faster, etc. than get beat because of a lack of attitude, technique, or knowledge.

The only explaination I can offer to you VBell is you work on a game plan based on what you've seen the last 2 weeks usually and what happend last year. If you're a Wing T team and are getting films of your opponent against spread and other looks, you have a limited amount of knowledge to base a game plan on. You may start the week of practice by running a lot of power, sweep, counter because that worked great the year before, but once the game starts, it's open on how they will play you. If they run the same BS as the year before, then you'll still run a lot of power. If they change, then you may run zone a lot even though you didn't necessarily practice it. Game plans are a living document like the US constitution. They can be amended, changed, things can be thrown out, etc. Nothing's set in stone. FCC can verify he pist us off once or twice throwing the ball so much inside the 5 yard line. Why? we had a 6'4" WR who caught everything and could jump. Why not. I can finally admit that I am a fan of the fade on the gaol line now...if you have a 6'4" Wr, sticky-good hands, great leap (I tried to rip off the Peyton Manning commercial).

And people run the spread to run the ball. Force players to make plays in space and the spread helps to ID blitzes (from an o-lineman's standpoint). Even in a 5-wide set, the defense needs to account for the Qb who can run depending on where the pocket goes. Every team runs playaction and many times those are the primary pass plays from something such as 0-Deuce Right, 21 personel, I-Right, etc. typical run formations. If you have a valuable TE who can catch...that's even better.

[Adam Sayer]

I'll quote some of the best advice I've ever heard and I've heard it often. Take what you believe in and stick with it. Don't be a jack of all trades. If you're a believer in the run game. PTR and PTR often. If you believe in a spread offense, run the spread. Once you know what you want to run, amend it little by little. If you read an idea from Urban Meyer's notes, steal it and add it into yours. If you see a clinic that shows a way to block the zone which you like better than what you previously did. Change what you did. Amend as you go, but walk the line when it comes to your beliefs and theories. Don't stray. If you do, you will find yourslef at a point where your mind's all scrambled and you don't know what to believe in. As far as me....I think everyone knows what they'll get if I ever get a chance to run an offense:

PTR
http://www.gilmangear.com/store/catalog/inside-zone-p-173.html - that's a link to where you can buy Alex Gibb's videos. He has 2. Inside zone and outside zone.

[FCC Approved Bland Name]

Run it between the 20's and throw it in when they man up.

You just exposed my entire philosophy Sayer.

I though only Mike Dane and Bill Venard knew it.

[Adam Sayer]

I'm sorry 

I have wondered though: Are WR given 2 routes in the huddle or do they have the freedom to choose which route to run on the goal line? If the Db has outside leverage, a quick slant is the route of least resistance. If the DB has inside leverage, a fade is the route of least resistance. If the DB is manned up, I guess you'd have to guess as to what the LB's will be doing but regardless, are these options available at the WR's disposal to use based on judgement or are they called?

Signed,
Hustle and Flow like Water

[victorybell_57]

sayer, thanks for the info. i just ordered the alex gibbs tapes.

are the outside zone tapes the "west virginia outside zone?" i read an article where the old OL coach at WVU saw what he did, and just stole everybit of it. he liked it and it worked.

i need howard mudd film. that man is very intelligent and has always been a quiet leader in rushing yards and less sacks in the nfl.

[70_dc_alum]

I was always just used to everyone knowing the play and audible becuase all the lines i always played on we always were together for years so we all thought the same way.  nothing better than telling the d-line what the play is becuase you are just kicking their tails soo bad to have to tell them what the play is presnap just to make it fair.  the biggest butt kicking ever laid on a d-line was in one of my highschool games where we ran the exact same play 44 dbl Iso 7 plays in a row in a 7 play 80yd TD drive. pre snap we told them the play every time, nothing more demoralizing than that.

talk about 8-9 man fronts. i never learned to pass block till college.  we were dbl tight and ran the triple option and iso out of the Wishbone.  when we did bring a WR into the game it was the Chineese Terror James Lee who was 5'1" slow asian kid. we attempted 10 passes my senior year and 7 of them were halfback passes 

[Superfoot Wallace]

Howard Mudd has had the luxury of Peyton Manning's connections with regards to offensive linemen.  Is it Mudd teaching the guys so much or is it the fact Manning has the best money can buy when it comes to offensive linemen?

Tarik Glenn is easily one of the four best left tackles in the history of the game, unless you count Derrick Deese.

This has been a point of contention with regard to offensive line communication, and yes the communication may be extra sensory as well as academic and audible.  If you have a left handed quarterback, ala Derrick Deese playing tackle to the front rather than blind side and being a mere 6 foot tall, then the lettering system for the 8 plays changes. 

Praising Glenn not to mention Saturday, who very well could be the second coming of Mike Webster, speaks to the blueprint. 

In actuality, the direct plays of my circumscribed 8 are A, B and C while the misdirection plays are A and C to quarterback handedness and A and B to quarterback offhandedness. 

The whole thing gets thrown in the wash when misdirection is differentiated from inidrect as well as direct, but thats for the Box system, whether it be wishbone or T.  In the alternative, if Curly is benched in favor of Byron, then just determine the handedness of the formation as opposed to the man taking the snap.

Still, any offense is subscribing offensive linemen by prescription.  The Mudd lines are built and designed for the stretch and a quarterback with a good waggle step.  Waggle step not as the wing T term, but the bent 7 step drop of the professionals.

The Colts get dropped in the playoffs without changing their modus operandi.  Mudd's zone was extant in the playoffs.  Saw more runs differentiated as power and offtackle. 

As an addendum, anybody ever played in a 90 series pass pro   with the guards gutting to edge rush and backs filling flank to the center.  That Mudd Line about got Manning killed on the first SB TD trying that protection.  Subscription by prescription.  Still have to dance with the gurl ewe brung.  But this 90 pro was an answer to the 50 and 30 fronts before everybody copied Jimmy Johnson's 40's.  Tell me again, what fronts were beating the Colts the last few years?

The two systems discussed here, 90 guts and stretch waggles have opposing premiums: not giving any quarter versus fleet footedness in line play and vice versa in front seven back play.

Funny enough, while the oneback that Mudd has been employing was invented at Franklin College, the Colts employ very little trap.  It is my understanding the first evolution of the one back run game was popcorn trap up the middle and wagontrain passoffs in the sweep game.  This was the seed thought for my transformer line calls.  Hardly any stretch in this lexicon, but for those finely tuned to Sally, single wing twisting gets very nasty pairing reverse and end around game as integrated in the O.G.  (overgold for those in the know) oneback.

There is discussion to be had with regards to terms of waggle step professional versus wing t Waggle, foot size of the quarterback as tending to loft and four over laces as opposed to index over point when choosing to either blast or trap in the interior run game.

Not just anybody can coach talent, but then again...

What have you done for me lately?

signed,
Inspector Clouseau

[Adam Sayer]

Against Wilmington, my junior year, we ran zone right/zone left in a similar situation against 2 DT's that were given All American and All Region credit. It was along the lines of a 10-12 play drive.

Still, our best drive was against Reading HS (home of DeShawn Wynn) my junior year. We got the ball to start the game, went 82 yards in 20 plays and scored on the first play of the 2nd quarter. I don't normally take good pictures, I'm an ugly sumbitch, but in our yearbook that year, there is a pic of me flatbacking a kid from Reading as our fullback ran by. Good times. I love those long drives. Kind of like a drive through the country.

[victorybell_57]

i believe that howard mudd was running the one back zone in cleveland during the mid '80s. of course, he had byner and mack, but he did well with injuries and adapting the same plays to the no namers. i also remember them going 4 wide a lot with a draw/trap to mix it up. i still don't understand why they did that, but it was nasty. mudd may be a romanticist of sorts, using the old 90 protections to prove they still work and that you don't have to slide everything. it takes a bit more technique to pass pro man and have the guards check for blitz. mudd does have some talented guys to work with (glenn, saturday, diem, MANNING), but many regard him as one of the best in the business.

funny that you bring up popcorn trap. i think many high schools in indiana used faught's system for many years (many still do!). of course, this made it's way to the high flying offense that leonard used at hanover and the modern day spread. i think it's sort of comical how the run n shoot led to the spread, and now the modern day spread is going back to it's run n shoot roots (urban myer, nevada, bowling green, etc).

we had a drive start on our 1 or 2 yardline. defense brought an all-out blitz. we went split backs, 4 go long with the backside receiver running an under. hit him for a 30something yards gain. ran te screen next followed up with the sweep reverse pass inside the red zone. then we ran iso until teeth bled for the rest of the game.

[Superfoot Wallace]

Only saw one oneback team while playing high school ball in Indiana, Scecina.  When they weren't going up top with a tight-end-esque quarterback one year, they were going around the corner or into any open rush lane with the fastest athlete at quarterback, using the back primarily to keep'em honest and as an extra blocker. 

The rest of the high school teams faced were pretty pure I formation.  Could at one time say played 4 of the state's top five career rushers, save Brett Law.

Victory, in orthodoxy what distinguishes run and shoot from spread?

signed,
Leroy Hoard

[FCC Approved Bland Name]

ALWAYS run a set route on the goal line and DB's will always have inside leverage.  Slant, Fade, Stop, and Whip (if you're good at it).  Slant is best but only works because you can actually complete a Fade.  WR should be 7 yards from the sideline every split so he doesn't give anything away.  No Speed Outs, Hitches, or Curls.

From the slot run Corner/Slant, Whip/Fade, and Burst/Slant combos.  Burst is my inside slant that is really a clear out for the outside Slant but hits occassionally and should be peeked at by the QB if the matchup looks good.  No Bubble.

..........................or run the G.