FB: Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference

[jknezek]

3. I don't care what HSC's record is now. That was absolutely a big game. And Wabash won.

As a sop to this, I'll simply say H-SC was a better team at the beginning of the season than they appear to be now. Whether that is fatigue or injuries or just a lack of depth I don't know, but H-SC was a good team when Wabash shut them down week 1. But... this weekend is a bigger game...

[GRIZ_BACKER]

More TONE!

1. The playoffs are not, as has been insinuated a couple times in the last several posts, some new season that plays by its own rules. That's outside-looking-in narrative spinning. Or lazy rah-rah from the inside. That's not the reality. Your team is your team. You play other teams. Period.

2. Franklin hasn't had a good win since 2008, so I just might stop playing THAT card. Thomas More maybe counts. Maybe. But playing good teams doesn't make yours one through osmosis. Not how it works. Your program has been bolstered by playing the UMUs of the world--you've gotten better players--and you and your Grizz brethren have clearly enjoyed some inflated sense of positioning on the national scene, but 90% of that is noise.

over the last six seasons Wabash is 2-4 against Witt and has one quality playoff win North Central in 2011.  Other than scheduling Hampton Sydney (7-3) what other good wins does Wabash have?  How is it that Wabash in the last 4-5 years is materially positioned higher on the national scene? 

[BashDad]

Didn't say they were higher.

[ExTartanPlayer]

Franklin hasn't had a good win since 2008, so I just might stop playing THAT card. Thomas More maybe counts. Maybe. But playing good teams doesn't make yours one through osmosis. Not how it works. Your program has been bolstered by playing the UMUs of the world--you've gotten better players--and you and your Grizz brethren have clearly enjoyed some inflated sense of positioning on the national scene, but 90% of that is noise.

To continue the discussion...

The point that Franklin has not had a "good" win since 2008, I guess, depends on your definition of "good" - I see that you're using a higher bar than merely "playoff win" because Franklin's playoff wins have not come against power conferences or teams (WashU, Adrian, Thomas More).  Fine.  What's the last win Wabash had that's definitely better than any of those?  The HSC win this year, given that the Tigers enter the playoff field at 7-3 (and not because of their brutal conference), looks about the same as any of those Franklin playoff wins.  I'd say maybe 2012 Wittenberg.  But if you're setting the bar high enough to discount playoff wins, almost nobody notches a "good" win in a given season by that definition.

Re: the "playing good teams doesn't make yours one through osmosis" - sure, but being on the field with UWW, UWW again, Mount, UMHB, Mount again, UWW again, UWW a fourth time (jesus, I didn't realize til now that they'd played UWW four times in the last four years) has to eventually, at the very least, make your dudes a little less likely to crap their pants at the sight of another really good team.  They got kicked to the curb in several of those games, but the most recent variants have featured a touch more competition (close shave with Mount last year and this year's first-quarter lead vs. UWW). 

[BashDad]

More TONE!

1. The playoffs are not, as has been insinuated a couple times in the last several posts, some new season that plays by its own rules. That's outside-looking-in narrative spinning. Or lazy rah-rah from the inside. That's not the reality. Your team is your team. You play other teams. Period.

2. Franklin hasn't had a good win since 2008, so I just might stop playing THAT card. Thomas More maybe counts. Maybe. But playing good teams doesn't make yours one through osmosis. Not how it works. Your program has been bolstered by playing the UMUs of the world--you've gotten better players--and you and your Grizz brethren have clearly enjoyed some inflated sense of positioning on the national scene, but 90% of that is noise.

over the last six seasons Wabash is 2-4 against Witt and has one quality playoff win North Central in 2011.  Other than scheduling Hampton Sydney (7-3) what other good wins does Wabash have?  How is it that Wabash in the last 4-5 years is materially positioned higher on the national scene? 

The HSC win is a better win than Franklin has had in long while. So are those Witt victories. And as long as we're playing the program measuring stick game, Wabash has, I'm guessing, way more wins against ranked teams than Franklin does in the same span (I'm thinking an undefeated Depauw team in 2010, North Central in 2011, Witt in 2012, HSC in 2014 -- are there others?). They also have a better playoff record. So.

[SaintsFAN]

Come on, GRIZ_BACKER !!

I dont mind spirited discussion etc, but the tone of one certain poster gets old.

See?  That wasn't so bad... I'm enjoying reading this as I'm stuck at work.

[ExTartanPlayer]

The HSC win is a better win than Franklin has had in long while.

Are we sure about this?  I'll admit that I thought HSC was really good and that it was a big win in week 1.  HSC is now a 7-3 team coming out of the ODAC.  Are we sure that's better than an 8-2 UAA team (2013 WashU; this team also took a 7-0 lead into the fourth quarter at UWW), a 9-1 MIAA team (2012 Adrian...actually, this team really did benefit from an especially-bad year in the MIAA), or a 9-1 PAC team (Thomas More, who was coming off two straight 11-1, round-of-16 seasons)?

That was a good win, but let's not pretend that gives Wabash some super-secret edge in winning big games that Franklin lacks.

They also have a better playoff record.

Over the long run, sure, they do.
Over the last three seasons, with guys who are actually still on the roster, no, they don't.

[GRIZ_BACKER]

The HSC win is a better win than Franklin has had in long while.

Are we sure about this?  I'll admit that I thought HSC was really good and that it was a big win in week 1.  HSC is now a 7-3 team coming out of the ODAC.  Are we sure that's better than an 8-2 UAA team (2013 WashU; this team also took a 7-0 lead into the fourth quarter at UWW), a 9-1 MIAA team (2012 Adrian...actually, this team really did benefit from an especially-bad year in the MIAA), or a 9-1 PAC team (Thomas More, who was coming off two straight 11-1, round-of-16 seasons)?

That was a good win, but let's not pretend that gives Wabash some super-secret edge in winning big games that Franklin lacks.

They also have a better playoff record.

Over the long run, sure, they do.
Over the last three seasons, with guys who are actually still on the roster, no, they don't.

Franklin is 5-5 and Bash 3-3 in playoff wins in the 6 seasons prior to this. Both teams advanced to the third round once in that time span.

[BashDad]

They also have a better playoff record.

Over the long run, sure, they do.
Over the last three seasons, with guys who are actually still on the roster, no, they don't.

I'll take Wabash's roster over Franklin's. I just don't see what it matters that Franklin has dudes who've been to the show. That's of negligible importance, especially when they are playing a team who's basically been in the playoffs the past three weeks and is coming off a game that trumps whatever atmospheric upgrade comes along with, like, laminated sideline passes and post-game press conferences.

Franklin got some extra days of practice last year in November. That's what those guys got. That's it.

[SaintsFAN]

FWIW --

In 2011, Thomas More was 9-1 and on the road at Franklin only because they inexplicably turned the ball over 3 times against a .500 Waynesburg outfit in their 9th game-- all while their starting QB had an epic meltdown on the bench during the Waynesburg game.

They should've been 10-0 that regular season. 

[BashDad]

The HSC win is a better win than Franklin has had in long while.

Are we sure about this?  I'll admit that I thought HSC was really good and that it was a big win in week 1.  HSC is now a 7-3 team coming out of the ODAC.  Are we sure that's better than an 8-2 UAA team (2013 WashU; this team also took a 7-0 lead into the fourth quarter at UWW), a 9-1 MIAA team (2012 Adrian...actually, this team really did benefit from an especially-bad year in the MIAA), or a 9-1 PAC team (Thomas More, who was coming off two straight 11-1, round-of-16 seasons)?

That was a good win, but let's not pretend that gives Wabash some super-secret edge in winning big games that Franklin lacks.

They also have a better playoff record.

Over the long run, sure, they do.
Over the last three seasons, with guys who are actually still on the roster, no, they don't.

Franklin is 5-5 and Bash 3-3 in playoff wins in the 6 seasons prior to this. Both teams advanced to the third round once in that time span.

HAHAHAHA -- Yes, dude. Your point DOES look better when you cut off the sample at six seasons. Hilarious.

[ExTartanPlayer]

The HSC win is a better win than Franklin has had in long while.

Are we sure about this?  I'll admit that I thought HSC was really good and that it was a big win in week 1.  HSC is now a 7-3 team coming out of the ODAC.  Are we sure that's better than an 8-2 UAA team (2013 WashU; this team also took a 7-0 lead into the fourth quarter at UWW), a 9-1 MIAA team (2012 Adrian...actually, this team really did benefit from an especially-bad year in the MIAA), or a 9-1 PAC team (Thomas More, who was coming off two straight 11-1, round-of-16 seasons)?

That was a good win, but let's not pretend that gives Wabash some super-secret edge in winning big games that Franklin lacks.

They also have a better playoff record.

Over the long run, sure, they do.
Over the last three seasons, with guys who are actually still on the roster, no, they don't.

Franklin is 5-5 and Bash 3-3 in playoff wins in the 6 seasons prior to this. Both teams advanced to the third round once in that time span.

HAHAHAHA -- Yes, dude. Your point DOES look better when you cut off the sample at six seasons. Hilarious.

OK then, let's cut it at three seasons, the point at which any players currently on the roster could be there.

Franklin: 3-3
Wabash: 2-1

[BashDad]

The HSC win is a better win than Franklin has had in long while.

Are we sure about this?  I'll admit that I thought HSC was really good and that it was a big win in week 1.  HSC is now a 7-3 team coming out of the ODAC.  Are we sure that's better than an 8-2 UAA team (2013 WashU; this team also took a 7-0 lead into the fourth quarter at UWW), a 9-1 MIAA team (2012 Adrian...actually, this team really did benefit from an especially-bad year in the MIAA), or a 9-1 PAC team (Thomas More, who was coming off two straight 11-1, round-of-16 seasons)?

That was a good win, but let's not pretend that gives Wabash some super-secret edge in winning big games that Franklin lacks.

They also have a better playoff record.

Over the long run, sure, they do.
Over the last three seasons, with guys who are actually still on the roster, no, they don't.

Franklin is 5-5 and Bash 3-3 in playoff wins in the 6 seasons prior to this. Both teams advanced to the third round once in that time span.

HAHAHAHA -- Yes, dude. Your point DOES look better when you cut off the sample at six seasons. Hilarious.

OK then, let's cut it at three seasons, the point at which any players currently on the roster could be there.

Franklin: 3-3
Wabash: 2-1

No, dude. Not going down this road. This is not the beginning the season. Past seasons are only relevant in discussions of a program's relative stature. I just disagree that there is anything to find where you're pointing your flashlight.

[ExTartanPlayer]

They also have a better playoff record.

Over the long run, sure, they do.
Over the last three seasons, with guys who are actually still on the roster, no, they don't.

I'll take Wabash's roster over Franklin's. I just don't see what it matters that Franklin has dudes who've been to the show. That's of negligible importance, especially when they are playing a team who's basically been in the playoffs the past three weeks and is coming off a game that trumps whatever atmospheric upgrade comes along with, like, laminated sideline passes and post-game press conferences.

Franklin got some extra days of practice last year in November. That's what those guys got. That's it.

Lest you get me wrong: I'm saying what I'm saying mostly to try to provide a semblance of an argument for why it's not a foregone conclusion that Wabash is winning this game.  Wabash's 2014 stats are undeniably better.  Wabash probably does have a better roster.  Heck, I'll even grant that Wabash, with a Pool C selection in 2013, would have won a playoff game in Franklin's position.  But the best angle I can come up with for "give me an argument for why Franklin might win this game" is that Franklin has done it the last few seasons with teams that had equally head-scratching and puzzling results as this year's team.  That's a completely intangible thing and can't be supported by any 2014 statistics.  But, like I said yesterday, you rattled off a bunch of 2014 statistics and gut-feeling stuff that predicted a big Wabash win over Wittenberg...and Wabash totally outplayed Wittenberg in the box score...and yet, the winner of that game still goes down as Wittenberg.  If it can happen once, it can happen again.

[GRIZ_BACKER]

The HSC win is a better win than Franklin has had in long while.

Are we sure about this?  I'll admit that I thought HSC was really good and that it was a big win in week 1.  HSC is now a 7-3 team coming out of the ODAC.  Are we sure that's better than an 8-2 UAA team (2013 WashU; this team also took a 7-0 lead into the fourth quarter at UWW), a 9-1 MIAA team (2012 Adrian...actually, this team really did benefit from an especially-bad year in the MIAA), or a 9-1 PAC team (Thomas More, who was coming off two straight 11-1, round-of-16 seasons)?

That was a good win, but let's not pretend that gives Wabash some super-secret edge in winning big games that Franklin lacks.

They also have a better playoff record.

Over the long run, sure, they do.
Over the last three seasons, with guys who are actually still on the roster, no, they don't.

Franklin is 5-5 and Bash 3-3 in playoff wins in the 6 seasons prior to this. Both teams advanced to the third round once in that time span.

HAHAHAHA -- Yes, dude. Your point DOES look better when you cut off the sample at six seasons. Hilarious.

OK then, let's cut it at three seasons, the point at which any players currently on the roster could be there.

Franklin: 3-3
Wabash: 2-1

No, dude. Not going down this road. This is not the beginning the season. Past seasons are only relevant in discussions of a program's relative stature. I just disagree that there is anything to find where you're pointing your flashlight.

As a child bASSdad was the one Pee Wee Herman modeled himself after  "I know you are but what am I"