FB: Heartland Collegiate Athletic Conference

[Adam Sayer]

I think its official. Marvin Lewis has lost control of his team. Chad Johnson, as funny and good as he may be at times, is starting to show some past resemblences of Randy Moss and T.O. now that the Begnals are struggling. He showed up Marvin on the sideline and gave no type of effort on Carson's 2nd INT. It may not matter at this point, but I think Marvin would gain a lot of respect from players, media, and coaches, if he sits Chad for a game due to his behavior. Ocho Cinco is starting to become a team cancer.

On top of Chad, you have the Bengals committing unbelievably dumb penalties such as the roughing the passer in the 1st quarter and the running into the kicker. I honestly think the only team they can beat right now is the Rams.

[Adam Sayer]

..off to Maloney's to do some post game interviewing.

           

[Most Known, Unknown.]

Sayer, I hear what your saying, and i'm sure alot of the players who came to MSJ, were from good programs, it is what, it is~ Secondly, Coach Hill(lol) I'm not upset about Hillvert leaving, it had been in the works for years that Coach Hillvert was leaving, just looking for the right chance! I believe in Coach Hubbie, and what he has done, but alot of players, who were not on that 10-0 squad, set the bar high for that 2004 team. If the 2002, and 2003, had some high power offense like we are seeing now from  MSJ, the mount would have won 5 str8 titles. the talent was there I just question the schemes, that was being developed! The Mount still has alot to look forward to this season, and alot of things needs to happen for them to make a run back to the Play-Offs. FC will need to slip against their next couple of conf games, and maybe the Mount can get back into the hunt, but thats a Big Maybe!!!  Coach Hillvert seems to have a young team down in KY, and maybe, just maybe the Bridge Bowl game will be a classic! but its too soon to talk about that. A question, if you were a coach, what would you take from a game like the one MSJ played against FC, how would you keep the players head up, knowing that they might be out the running for a Play-off spot, they get nothing for coming into seacond place! Just a Thought, and I will be here for awhile, I always come on here, and read the post on here. One More question, those who have played in the last couple of years, who was the best defensive/offensive player that you have seen come through the conf in a long time??? I think steele from anderson, dorf from msj, dietz hanover. The Bengals Defense stink, Marvin will be on the hot seat soon, because he has the talent on offense to be a good team, but if your defense can't stop anyone, then well you get the point! 

[SaintsFAN]

I honestly think the only team they can beat right now is the Rams.

yeah....The BADIN Rams..

[fc_alum_84]

Saints fan, please stop the whining, etc. MSJ who statistically has the best defense in the HCAC this year got ran over on their own field.  243 yards rushing on the road against a solid program is what it is.  Franklin rang up approx 500 yards on the road against 6-0 14th ranked Wabash and lost a close game by two points.  The rest of the games have been blow-outs.  In the last 2-3 season the Mount has won close games with FC.  This is Franklin's year.  Don't kid yourself about Leonard's recruiting either.

[altor]

You ask why am I throwing in the towl. FC needs to lose 2 HCAC games to get bumped from the HCAC championship race. That isn't happeing.

This isn't entirely true.  There is a possible three-way tie scenario with Defiance, Franklin, and MSJ all with one loss.  Considering the ridiculous HCAC tiebreaking rules, the AQ will go to the team whose non-conference opponents have the best records.

I also have a question for anyone who might want to answer. MSJ scores to make it a 28-19 game. Instead of kicking the extra point to make it 28-10 (and still a 1 posession game), Suriano elects to go for 2. The play fails and MSJ is left with a 28-19 deficit...a 2 posession game? Kick the extra point in my opinion. The 2 pt conversion at that point doesn't necessarily gain anything, yet if it is not made, loses everything. Sounds like a riverboat gamble that didn;t work out.

That is a matter of debate.  Some coaches will elect to go for 2 when down 9 because they figure that it lets them know whether they still need 2 possessions or 1 at that point.  Others will say that you kick the extra point to make sure it is still 1 possession at that point.  I tend to like the first philosophy if there is plenty of time for 2 possessions if you need them, but with 4:06 left it is debatable that you could get the ball back twice.

[Adam Sayer]

It's very debatedable that you can get the ball back 2 times, especially with the way FC was moving it. Again, its one of those things that had he made it, the thought probably wouldn't have entered my mind. As a coach, you can't live by the book of rules all the time. You have to take chances. Sometimes they work and sometimes they don't.

I could be wrong, but I think the HCAC follows the Big 10 rules. If there is a 3-way tie, I think the school who has the longest drought, gets the nod for the automatic bid. Defiance won the HCAC in 2001, MSJ the last 3 years, and FC hasn't won it.  Your non conference w-l may come first, I haven't looked at the scenarios in a while.

To answer your question about motivation, MSJ can still be 9-1, can still finish with a share of the HCAC, and though very slim, can still get an at-large. You have to play for it. They were faced with the same situation in 2005 after losing to Hanover. The season isn't over and you still have the TMC game. Which right now, if both teams came in 0-9, would be the biggest D3 game that week due to the situation.

I stand corrected. Guys like Pat McAtee, Big E, Mike Dane, and some others were also responsible for our success in 2004. They came in at the same time as I (redshirted my freshman year) and had the balls to stick around through some tough times. I apologize for not recognizing them. Had they not stuck around, MSJ would also be stuck in a losing spiral still.

I believe the best player is Andy Wellendorf. Steele, Dietz have their awards and numbers, but Dorf is the best player in MSJ history. You can make arguments for some others, but he single handily won us 5-6 games throughout his career. He was never blessed with a great QB. Mike Dane was good and could manage a game, but I wouldn't call him great. Had he a Dietz, Steele, or even Rupp (presently) he would have set D3 on fire. It is a shame he was never an All American. He put up insane numbers with really, no help.

[tepee]

congratulations to Franklin

[SaintsFAN]

fc alum,

OK, re-read what I wrote...there's no whinning AND I'm definitely not a MSJ fan...I just happen to know a bit about the school from Sayer and others.   Also about Leonards recruiting....REREAD what I've written...I never cut on his recruiting.   I cut on his teams' (ie Hanover and Franklin) not making serious runs in the playoffs.  Its a FACT.  A few of the Hanover guys I know will tell you the same thing.  

The blowouts are something that should alarm you as MSJ had those same blowouts last year....I brought them up because you naturally pad your rushing stats...by trying to shorten the game.  Its not going to help Franklin..

Now lets look at something you said...which tells me you don't pay that close attention to the program or you are just simply an embellisher.....you said that for the last 2-3 seasons (before this one) that Mount St. Joe won close games with Franklin.....but in 2005 they beat Franklin 41-20.  

You are new to the board, and thus far it appears only here because of the win on Saturday over MSJ and you are trying to call people out.  You won't last long at the rate you're going....ask victorybell who's been here the whole time.

[KYGrizzly]

Here is the HCAC Tie-Breaker scenario:

1. Which team won in their head to head competition?

2. How the tied teams fared against next team in conference standings.  Continue down in the conference standings until the tie is broken.

3. Number of conference wins by the conference opponents you defeated.  Team whose opponents had the highest number of wins breaks the tie.

4. Number of conference wins by the conference opponents you lost to.  Team whose opponents had the highest number of wins breaks the tie.

5. Total winning percentage by non-conference opponents.

6. The team which has not gone to the NCAA Football Playoffs for the longest period of time (Big 10 Rose Bowl Rule).

7. Rankings from the AFCA Division III National Poll.

8. Blind Draw.  One lot shall be marked AQ and all others will be blank.  The draw will be conducted by the conference Commissioner and SID at the Heartland Conference Office.  The draw will be made in alphabetical order of the tied schools.  A coach or representative from each school involved may attend the drawing.

Congrats to Franklin on their big win.

In regards to Coach Leonard's recruiting he does do a great job, but you also have to give a lot of the credit to Coach Theobald too.

[Adam Sayer]

So it's the scenario, right before the BIG 10 rule.

[KYGrizzly]

I believe that is the one that Altor was talking about, I was just posting the scenarios that the HCAC uses.

Personally I would think that a tie would be broken by rules #3 or #4 before it got down to either one of those two.

[Adam Sayer]

Regardless, FC has to lose twice. If there is a 3-way tie, and the 3 teams beat each other (ie FC, MSJ, and DC are all 6-1 in HCAC play), #1-4 can't apply. FC has the edge in #5 because of the Wabash game and #6 because they have yet to win a HCAC championship.

MSJ has to win out and win out impressively. It helps MSJ in a small way that even though FC lost, they played Wabash tough. The odds are against them but for MSJ to have a chance, we're talking about blowouts the rest of the way to show they can at least compete as a 7 or 8 in the playoffs. The difference maker may come down to the TMC game. (THIS IS JUST A SUGGESTION) but with the situation The Bridge Bowl is in, and the emotion level of the game, IF MSJ was to win big, such as 35-7, or 42-10, That may be enough to help them out. It's all speculation.

Personally, I think FC got screwed last year at 9-1, with a big win against Wabash to add to their resume, but MSJ getting smoked in the playoffs again, didn't help a 9-1 HCAC runner up's cause.

[SaintsFAN]

wow, Adam.  My "bold" letter-reading part of my computer is broken....

but did you just say it will be a bloodbath in the Bridge Bowl??   


In my very humble opinoin, any Lion win over the Saints would be good....BUT how good is going to be defined by how they finish in the PAC....most notably against W&J...who is a lock at this point.

[altor]

Personally I would think that a tie would be broken by rules #3 or #4 before it got down to either one of those two.

And that is part of the ridiculousness to which I was referring.  Rules #3 and #4 will never break a tie in this conference as long the overtime rules stay the same and they play a complete round-robin.  If the teams are still tied after Rule #2, it means the tied teams defeated and lost to the same schools.  That means that Rule #3 is worthless, because the wins for the schools they defeated will also be the same.  Same thing for Rule #4, they lost to the same schools, so the wins for those teams will be the same.  It is an absolutely ridiculous set of rules.

The ridiculousness of Rule #5 is in the fact that it is total winning percentage of non-conference opponents.  Note that you don't have to beat the opponents, or even make it close.  You just have to play them.  It is possible for a team to schedule three 10-0 teams and get beat by a total of 150 points, but they win this tiebreaker over a team that lost close games to two 10-0 teams and beat to a 9-1 team.  Also, the way it is written on the website, it also leads to possible scenarios where MSJ might wish to lose the Bridge Bowl because it increases TMC's winning percentage.

I wrote an e-mail to the address at the bottom of the HCAC webpage back in 2000 or 2001 in which I tried to explain all this.  I didn't even get auto-generated reply that they received my e-mail or a courtesy response of "thank you for the input."  They just ignored me.