BB: SUNYAC

[jdex]

Cortland at SUNYIT 1st game:
Corts 9-14-0, IT 0-3-3. J. Dougher (w, 6-1) 4.0inn, 1h, 0bb, 4k combines with four relievers over 9 frames.  Dougher ERA 0.miniscule for season. Dragons score 5 in 1st (D. Maycock 2bi) and 3 in 3rd. J. Russo 2x5, 2bi; A. Coromato 2x5, 2bh; M. Vitalone 2x3; S. Nickel 2x5; P. Merriweather 2x3

2nd game:
Corts 5-11-0, IT 2-5-2. G. Jweid (w) 4.0inn, 5h, 2r, 2er, 0bb, 10k. Two relievers over final 3inn. CSt 1-0 in 1st, 2-0 2nd, 4-0 in 4th before Cats answer twice in 4th swings. S. Caughey 4x4; A. Gardner 3x5, 2bi; J. Russo 2x2. Dragons 8x9 base swipes

Corts 22-3, IT 5-13

[John McGraw]

It really doesn't matter, as Brockport lost game #2... but I have a question as maybe I misunderstand something.  I don't see an earned run scored in the game... I know this will sound like sour grapes, as it was my son who was pitching...   I've been playing and involved in baseball for over 30 years, and can't figure out how one of the runs was earned.

first batter - on by a fielding error (should be out #1...)
second batter - on with a fielders choice, and the runner is safe at 2nd with a throwing error (should be out # 2...)
third batter - hits a double (scoring to unearned runs)
fourth batter - flys out to the outfield (should be out #3...)
fifth batter - flys out to the outfield (4th out?)
sixth batter - singles to right, to score the 3rd run.  since the innning should have been over, this too is an unearned run.

Did I miss something?  If any one can help me with this I would love to hear th explaination as to why one run is earned.  It doesn't matter, as the team lost the game... I am just curiuos as to how or why it was scored that way...

All three runs should be unearned as far as I can tell. Though, its a little confusing because the second batter reached on a fielders choice. In the scorer's mind, maybe he thought the runner would have been safe at first had the fielder not thrown to second base. But, since the fielder went to second base first, it's automatically a fielders choice, no way its an infield hit.

The third batter doubles, which would send said runner over to third. Fourth batter flies out, possibly could be deduced as what would what have been a sac fly. Then another fly out ends the inning.

Bob, I still think you're right, but that's one way it could have played out. I don't have my rulebook right with me so I can't look it up. But, the second error would have been a groundout if the first hitter had reached. Could just be a scoring mistake too, those things happen.

[Bob Maxwell]

John,

That is what I thought...

I am someone who scores and reads box scores all the time.  The same play happened in game #1... third inning with Brockport up.  Only 2 differences were: 1) in game #1 it was the shortstop fielded the ball in one instance and in game #2 it was the thirdbaseman; 2) the runner going to 2B in the igame #1 play was safe at 2B, but did not advance to 3B because the second baseman knocked the wild throw down so the runner stayed on second base on the throwing error (instead of being out), while in game #2, the runner advanced to third on the throwing error because the throw went into RF.

In both cases, the runners going to second are out if the throw is accurate and caught...  In both cases the batters who hit the ball and made it safely to first on the fielders choise and eventually scored... In the instance I outlined the run he scored was earned; In the first game, the run the batter scored was unearned.

Same play, different interpretation...  The SS did bobble the ball before making the throw to second base, but that becomes moot because the throw to 2B clearly beat the runner to the base, it was just wild.  So the bobble has nothing to do with the outcome of the fielders choice. 

In the box scores, the information is stated differently... In game one, it reads the batter reached on an error by the SS with no mention of the atttempted play at 2B; and in game two, it reads that the batter reached on a fielders choice with the error being a throwing error to second and the runner advancing to third.  In both instances it was clearly a fielders choice and the error that occured were throwing errors on that choice by the fielder.   The batter reaching base safely while the runner who the fielders choice is acted on is safe by error... is the same as the batter reaching base on an error.

It is one of the things that makes the game interesting... there are so many things to discuss.

Doesn't really matter... I just wondered if I had been misintrepating something for years.   

[Bob Maxwell]

How depressing is this weather... you play for a few days and then have to take a week off!  Doesn't look like any games will be played this week... especially in the central and east end of the state.

[4Bsbll4]

This weather is terrible, supposedly one of the worst storms in 25 years.... I don't see any weekly games being played, and if there are any it wouldn't be until Thursday or Friday I suppose.... Brockport plays at New Paltz on Wednesday in a double header, but with the rain not stopping until late Tuesday, I don't see the NP field being ready... would that be rescheduled to Thursday or Friday? I'd imagine if anything it might be Thursday because Brockport has home conference DH on Sat(SUNY IT) and Sun(Platts), and NP travels to Oswego(sat) and Cortland (sun)... does anyone know anything about how the re-scheduling might work?

[John McGraw]

After hitting the rulebook, OxyBob is correct. Three cheers.

[Bob Maxwell]

Thanks for looking into it...

I still say it was an unearned run... I understand what OxyBob is saying, but the runners was able to reach 3rd on the over throw BECAUSE the error allowed him to reach 2nd safely.  If the throw is accurate and caught, he is out.  AND if the runner is not on first to create the fielders choice the batter is thrown out at first.

I just feel that the first error brought on the second one by creating the fielders choice... and that choice is what let the second runner on.  If after researching the rule book, Oxy Bob and John say its earned, becasue of what is inthe rule book... then it must be. 

Then I question the unearned run in the first game that occured on the same play...   

Personally, I think they are both unearned... but not a biggee.  Just asked for your thoughts... thanks for putting time into it.

And it isn't a big deal, as it was not the winning run... Brockport didn't get the bats going to to score runs and make it an issue.  threathened in 4 innings with runner to 2nd, but couldn't get the hit to bring the runs in.

Its one of the things that baseball creates so those of us who really love and enjoy the game get a chance to research and discuss the rules.

Thanks...

[Bob Maxwell]

4bsbll4,

I feel the same way about the likely hood of the Wednesday games... I don't think a field can take 3 days of rain, especically with the ground already being saturated... and be ready the next day.  But you never know.

I don't know what they would do to reschedule if it is canceled...  I would think the next week would be the way to go so the field is ready.  But I have no idea what the rules are...

Also, Plattsburgh has only played 4 conference games to date... they will have to play 10 conference games in an 8 day period.  Good thing that they come to the west end of the state for the first four, as we haven't gotten as much precip as the other areas...  wonder what happens if they dont' play all the games?

I wonder if any of the teams will actually play 40 games this year.

[jdex]

With apologies to Ernie .......Let's play, uh, 40, and let's play 'em in MILWAUKEE!!

Of course, that's if you can get to Brewtown on the D3 bus.

[Bob Maxwell]

LOL Jdex... well said.

It will be interesting to see how and when teams get the games in... and the condensing of a  lot of conference games in a short period of time may impact the pitching rotations and possibly the outcomes too.  I hope the games in Cortland and Oswego can take place next weekend... if they can't, there is a real issue with some teams getting all the games in.  we shall see...

Oxy Bob...
The play I asked about is not an big issue... I just asked as I thought it was incorrect.  Still do feel its incorrect...  Your explaination makes it plausible that it is earned, based on the complication of the scoring rules.   Holmes scored on the double from first, which he reached on an FC... as the play with the error was made at second base on anohter runner.   The thing I did was "assume" that the first error contributed to the second error... because of the first runner reaching on an error, and if he wasn't on base Holmes would have been thrown out at first.  You correctly pointed out that the run scored on the double from first... and the runner reached on a fielders choice where an error (that would not have ended the inning) occurred at a different base/runner.  The fact that the runner who was safe at second on the error reached on an error on the previous play... can't influence the next batter reaching base as he did in this case.  Can you?   

It is an interesting situation... and I enjoy discussing this type of technicality so I asked the question.  I suspect you do too, as you looked into it... thanks.

[Paul Heering]

i agree with officer maxwell on this scoring issue, all should be unearned.  the basic rule (and this is a simplification of it is), reconstruct the inning, if all of the fielders made the expected plays (no errors), if in that reconstruction no runs score, than there are no earned runs.

i think this is how it went

first batter - on by a fielding error (should be out #1...)
second batter - on with a fielders choice, and the runner is safe at 2nd with a throwing error (should be out # 2...)
third batter - hits a double (scoring to unearned runs)
fourth batter - flys out to the outfield (should be out #3...)
fifth batter - flys out to the outfield (4th out?)
sixth batter - singles to right, to score the 3rd run.  since the innning should have been over, this too is an unearned run.

if you reconstruct the inning with plays being made you get
first batter is out
second batter is out
third batter hits a double
fourth batter is out.

end of inning, 1 hit, 1 runner left on base, 0 runs. 

the only tricky part is this.....

Tthe official scorer obviously thought that when there was a runner on first and a ground ball that this runner would have been out at second with a good throw (b/c if he/she did not there would have been no error) if somehow this was a ground ball where the only play was the force (meaning there was no way you would throw out the runner at first) then, i think, it is possible that this run is earned.

[Paul Heering]

2003 major league baseball rule book states (sorry that is the latest one i have)

page 94

Earned Runs
10.18 An earned run is a run for which the pitcher is held accountable.   In determining earned runs, the inning should be reconstructed without the errors (which include catcher's interference) and passed balls, and the benefit of the doubt should always be given to the pitcher in determining which bases would have been reached by errorless play.

i think the underlined section clears up how we decide this and the part in italics clears up the issue about the second runner to reach base

[Bob Maxwell]

Based on what Don has quoted... I was correct.

The benefit of the doubt is given to the pitcher if the inning is reconstructed without the errors having occured... the errors put two runners on base who ended up scoring.  BASED on what Don has referenced, batter Holmes reaching first on the FC, is just like the error was committed on him... since the runner who was on base via the first error should not have been there because of that error.

Interesting...  I've been doing it correctly.  Which makes me feel good...


But its over and really doesn't change the outcome of the game.

Thanks to both of you for the research on it... 

[Paul Heering]

looks like i need to have a meeting with the bobs, sorry somewhat obscure reference but it made me laugh.  onto the earned run topic

oxy, i didn't have the ncaa book so i went to mlb.  but what you quoted was basically the same thing as the mlb rule.

you seem stuck on the fact that holmes (the second batter) reached on a fielders choice.  that doesn't matter.  If there were no errors in the inning (i.e., if the first batter had been put out) homes would not have reached.  it would have been a ground out.  i did not have wisley making two outs.  i had wisley making the first out (without the error).   what you need to consider is "what would have happened" if wisley got up with nobody on base and hit the same ground ball.  he would have been out.  the fact that he "Ended up" reaching on a fielders choice doesn't matter.  if there was no error on the first batter then there would have been nobody on base, therefore making it impossible for him to hit into a fielders choice.

i think it is interesting to discuss this stuff (and i realize i am in the minority in real life by saying that) but i think they are all unearned runs.  but i appreciate someone elses opinion and actually find the discussion interesting (i would say we are having a discussion i wouldn't want oxybob, bobby max, or anyone else to think this is an arguement).

bobby max--since the senate is looking into the steroids thing maybe they could throw this in and get bobby jr's era lowered.  just a thought

[scuba16]

oxybob is right, just read the rule in the ncaa book. there should have been 2 runs unearned and 1 earned run.
bob, u do make a good point about giving the pitcher the benefit of the doubt and without reading the rule i would have also said that every run would have been unearned but apparently there are people who know more than me, interestingly enough!