BB: Midwest Region

[Gustie13]

This is the part of D3Baseball that has always confused and frustrated me, in region rankings/record. Couldn't WIAC and MIAC teams just load up their sched with UMAC opponents to pump up their in region record?

Osh, can you explain GAC's 4-2 record to me? Elmhurst and Luther are in the Central region, aren't they?

[Gashouse_Gang]

"Wisconsin teams going to be able to play this weekend?"

UWW will play...Sat. in the dome vs. St. Cloud State according to their schedule.

[BaseballFan]

This is the part of D3Baseball that has always confused and frustrated me, in region rankings/record. Couldn't WIAC and MIAC teams just load up their sched with UMAC opponents to pump up their in region record?

Osh, can you explain GAC's 4-2 record to me? Elmhurst and Luther are in the Central region, aren't they?

The NCAA uses a value system based on a teams record. Therefore, playing better teams gets you more points if you win. Even if you lose to a team with a good record you get more points than if you lose to a bad team. So yes MIAC and WIAC could stack their schedule with UMAC teams but if you lose to the teams that have poor records then it hurts you a lot and does not help if you win.

For example, if you beat a team with a win percentage of over .750 you get more points than a team with a .500 record and subsequently more points than a team with a record of .400.

If you lose to a team that has a win percentage over .750 you might get 8 points. If you beat a  team with a record of like .400 you might only get like 10.  There is a scale they use that I think goes up to like 16 points. Therefore, CSS is not helped by their conference evident by their seeds the last two years #4 and #6. But Northwestern and Bethany Lutheran usually have decent records so the entire conference is not terrible to common belief

That help?


Yes any of the teams in the Iowa conference are in the Central region so they dont count as midwest region games unless they have changed it but highly doubtful to count games from the Central region in the Midwest region

[OshDude]

This is the part of D3Baseball that has always confused and frustrated me, in region rankings/record. Couldn't WIAC and MIAC teams just load up their sched with UMAC opponents to pump up their in region record?

Osh, can you explain GAC's 4-2 record to me? Elmhurst and Luther are in the Central region, aren't they?

Yes, Elmhurst and Luther are Central teams. But you have to look at it in terms of administrative regions as well. Iowa, Illinois and Minnesota are all in the same administrative region, so those games are in-region.

Heck, even California is in the same admin region as Minnesota. Basically, anything west and including Illinois and Wisconsin would be considered an in-region game for GAC. Chapman, Linfield, Texas-Tyler, Augustana ... it isn't exactly intuitive, but all those teams are in GAC's region when calculating regional games.

There's a reason why the top teams from the East, Mideast, Mid-Atlantic and so on play the top teams from the west during spring trips. You don't often see a St. Thomas going out to play Chapman. What you do often see is Wheaton (Mass.), New Jersey, Marietta and Kean matching up with the big boys out west because there's no downside for any of those teams.

This goes for everyone – if you did not know this already – because based on the posts no one seems to know what counts as in-region. Please follow this link and read #5 (and the rest, too). It will clear up most any question you may have about in-region games.
http://www.d3baseball.com/faq/category/NCAA+Tournament

If you still have questions after reading that, let me know. I don't claim to know everything about it, but I'm a decent place to start.

Post your own regional rankings. That stuff is fun to debate. But please use regional, and not overall, records as your basis.

But if you don't mind, please allow me to do the regional records like I have started. If you want to do it too, that's fine. Later in the season I will calculate the top teams' QOWi like I did late last season.

BTW, I think Ripon's schedule will get in the way of a #1 or #2 seed this year. The Hawks will have to steal a game from Stevens Point, sweep Marian and win the Norbert series to even get a Pool C sniff (assuming Ripon is not Pool A). That's a lot to ask. The no-pressure, nonregional spring schedule puts a ton of importance on just a few games. Lawrence, Carroll, Beloit and Lakeland are all downside games. The Augie cancellation hurt as well. If Ripon doesn't win the MWC tournament, I doubt it makes regionals. Bold statement, but I think that's right.

[OshDude]

To make it an even Top 20, I added two more MWC teams – Grinnell and Illinois College.

Ranked by winning percentage (through 3/25), and I know this is not the order of Midwest teams. It's just easiest this way. Midwest series against Top 20 in parentheses.

1.  Whitewater 6-2 (Olaf 1-1, Beth 2-0, Augs 1-1)
     Stevens Point 3-1 (StT 1-1)
     Superior 3-1 (Grinn 1-1)
     Moorhead 3-1 (LAX 2-0)
5.  Oshkosh 5-2 (CSS 1-1, StT 1-1, Beth 2-0)
6.  Grinnell 8-3 (Olaf 0-2, Sup 1-1)
7.  St. Scholastica 4-2 (StT 1-1, UWO 1-1)
     Gustavus 4-2 (Stout 1-1)
     St. Olaf 4-2 (WW 1-1, Grinn 2-0)
10. St. John's 5-3 (LAX 0-2, Stout 0-1)
11. La Crosse 6-4 (Augs 2-0, Ham 0-2, John's 2-0, Moor 0-2)
12. Hamline 8-6 (LAX 2-0)
      Illinois College 4-3
14. Platteville 4-4
      St. Thomas 3-3 (CSS 1-1, Point 1-1, UWO 1-1)
      St. Norbert 3-3
17. Stout 4-5 (Ham 0-2, Gusty 1-1, Augs 1-1, John's 1-0)
18. Augsburg 4-6 (LAX 0-2, WW 1-1, Stout 1-1)
19. Bethel 3-5 (UWO 0-2, WW 0-2)
20. Ripon 0-0

[cubs]

I'm surprised nobody has made any mention of Platteville's Wednesday victory over Division 1 Northern Iowa. 

Take a look at the D3 Baseball front page for further details.

[Gustie13]

Thats one of the things that frustrates me: we've got the MIAC, WIAC, MWC, and UMAC in the Midwest Region on the boards and the SCAC, SCIAC, ASC, and NWC in the West Region. Each has their own regional playoff. But in region records count games against teams from all these conferences (and others like IIAC, NATHC, CCIW because they are in Region 4 [Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming]). Its not a very user friendly system.

And this isn't a rant against D3Baseball.com, I'm ubergrateful it exists. And thanks for the clarification Osh & Fan.

[Bronko7]

What some don't understand about the UMAC is that until this year only two teams in the conference counted as in region DIII's. So that is part of the reason St. Scholastica has to go out and try to play as many of the upper MIAC teams as it can get scheduled. I think that the UMAC's bottom three compares equally poor with that of the MIAC, the Tommies or Oles are not going to lose to Mac or Carl. But those are in region wins that count for them. To this point CSS playing Crown and MLC can only hurt them by losing, but there in the conference so they have to play. To thoughts about just scheduling lower end UMAC teams, its not a half bad idea. But the way that CSS has gone about there scheduling the past few years with playing the top half MIAC's shows that they are willing to do what it takes to get to the tourney. I believe that CSS would jump at the chance to be in the MIAC, and have tried to in the past, being turned down for such things as facilities. The other part is that there other sports would have a lot of catching up to do if that ever did happen. Overall the fact remains that CSS is in a tough position without the auto bid.

[OshDude]

What some don't understand about the UMAC is that until this year only two teams in the conference counted as in region DIII's. So that is part of the reason St. Scholastica has to go out and try to play as many of the upper MIAC teams as it can get scheduled. I think that the UMAC's bottom three compares equally poor with that of the MIAC, the Tommies or Oles are not going to lose to Mac or Carl. But those are in region wins that count for them. To this point CSS playing Crown and MLC can only hurt them by losing, but there in the conference so they have to play. To thoughts about just scheduling lower end UMAC teams, its not a half bad idea. But the way that CSS has gone about there scheduling the past few years with playing the top half MIAC's shows that they are willing to do what it takes to get to the tourney. I believe that CSS would jump at the chance to be in the MIAC, and have tried to in the past, being turned down for such things as facilities. The other part is that there other sports would have a lot of catching up to do if that ever did happen. Overall the fact remains that CSS is in a tough position without the auto bid.

CSS helped itself by adding football. I would think CSS becomes more attractive to other conferences because of it, if CSS does indeed want to move. If the football program can come close to matching the baseball team's success it would make sense for everyone involved for CSS to leave the UMAC and join the MIAC. Once the provisional tag is lifted from the football team, there could be a move. Again, if a move is what CSS really wants, and there are a lot of ifs. I know the red tape is ridiculous in the WIAC. Don't know if the MIAC is easier to join than the WIAC, but it would almost have to be.

And you're right, the CSS baseball team is actually hurt by how bad its conference is. Those wins against below-.500 and below-.333 teams are nothing more than pushes. Same goes for Thomas/Olaf against the MIAC bottom. Those games are scarier than Olaf vs. Thomas or CSS vs. Thomas because the loser of the best team vs. best team doesn't lose all that much. If CSS were to lose a couple of those bad games, they come back to the Pool B pack. That said, two Pool B baseball bids are virtual locks every year: Chapman and CSS. But there's plenty of competition from the independents and especially from the new provo conferences that seemed to pop up in the past few years.

[OshDude]

Thats one of the things that frustrates me: we've got the MIAC, WIAC, MWC, and UMAC in the Midwest Region on the boards and the SCAC, SCIAC, ASC, and NWC in the West Region. Each has their own regional playoff. But in region records count games against teams from all these conferences (and others like IIAC, NATHC, CCIW because they are in Region 4 [Alaska, Arizona, California, Colorado, Hawaii, Idaho, Illinois, Iowa, Kansas, Minnesota, Missouri, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, New Mexico, North Dakota, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Texas, Utah, Washington, Wisconsin, Wyoming]). Its not a very user friendly system.

And this isn't a rant against D3Baseball.com, I'm ubergrateful it exists. And thanks for the clarification Osh & Fan.

Probably not user-friendly, but I think it helps out the teams west of the Mississippi, where there are not many D3 schools in relative terms. Nebraska Wesleyan (basketball) and the Missouri and Iowa schools wouldn't be on equal footing with many eastern teams if there weren't another level qualifying what counts as regional games.

I also think it's easier when you forget what you think in-region games should be and just think about it terms of geography and the number of teams in a region. I know that helped me understand it.

Be thankful we don't live in many other sports regions, where they often have to use specific mapping software to see which games are within 200 miles, thus in-region. We sometimes have to do that, but reading posts on other boards makes me happy I'm in one of the west-of-the-Mississippi (ish ... again, thinking more of admin regions and lumping WI and IL "west" of the river) conferences. People literally take a week debating which teams should be counted as in-region. And it's not idiots like me, either. Pat Coleman and some other brainy folks go back and forth over something as silly (and vitally important) as 2 miles. It can get crazy out east and down south. Wisconsin and Illinois teams sometimes have to get out the maps, but teams west of that rarely have a problem, except for regional tournament travel and host duties.

[Gustie13]

I've heard many times that CSS has inquired about joining the MIAC and is rebuffed. Here are three reasons I can think of why:

Time- Duluth is 2-2.5 hours north of the TC, where 1/2 the MIAC is located. The other half of the schools are going to be even further away. The MIAC already has Concordia, which is 3 hours from the closest opponent, so why add another long trip.
Sports- Not sure how much the MIAC goes off this when looking at applicants, but CSS doesn't have mens/womens golf or swimming-diving, or womens hockey. The most sports any MIAC institute doesn't participate in is 2 (carleton, mens/womens hockey).
No Need- CSS is good at baseball, and ok at mens hockey, but as far as I can tell their other sports aren't very noteworthy. Their academics appear good, but probably middle of the pack in the MIAC. So why would the MIAC need another institute that stands out only in baseball?

[BaseballFan]

My thinking on CSS moving to the MIAC is why would they? When the UMAC gets their automatic bid CSS has a good chance to the NCAA playoffs going in many sports--Baseball, Tennis, basketball some years, softball (made the NCAA like 2 or 3 straight years couple years ago). The baseball team will guarantee themselves a bid to the NCAA tourney for a long time so I dont think they need to move to the MIAC since they play the best teams from there anyways.

Im surprised the MIAC doesnt want CSS in to make it a solid 14 teams then they could make 2 divisions if necessary. Two and half hours is not that far so not a valid reason for the MIAC.  CSS continue to add sports Football and Nordic Skiing. Rumors of golf have been mentioned but who knows

Rumors say that CSS wont go to the MIAC to join and will only join the MIAC if they come to them. Plus CSS might not leave the UMAC anyways. Again just rumors

[BaseballFan]

What some don't understand about the UMAC is that until this year only two teams in the conference counted as in region DIII's. So that is part of the reason St. Scholastica has to go out and try to play as many of the upper MIAC teams as it can get scheduled. I think that the UMAC's bottom three compares equally poor with that of the MIAC, the Tommies or Oles are not going to lose to Mac or Carl. But those are in region wins that count for them. To this point CSS playing Crown and MLC can only hurt them by losing, but there in the conference so they have to play. To thoughts about just scheduling lower end UMAC teams, its not a half bad idea. But the way that CSS has gone about there scheduling the past few years with playing the top half MIAC's shows that they are willing to do what it takes to get to the tourney. I believe that CSS would jump at the chance to be in the MIAC, and have tried to in the past, being turned down for such things as facilities. The other part is that there other sports would have a lot of catching up to do if that ever did happen. Overall the fact remains that CSS is in a tough position without the auto bid.

CSS is really hurt by their conference because usually 5 of their 7 opponents in the conference end up with losing records with some really bad records too. Therefore, the reasoning why they play UWO (2), STT (3), STO (2), GA (2), Buena Vista (2). CSS has been pretty much a lock as a Pool B bid even though last year they were the 6th seed and they have made the region tourney 3 straight years only STP and STT have done that in the region. Its a shame the UMAC cannot get better overall for baseball.

[Gustie13]

Coach Baggs told his team earlier this year that they need to really do well in their in-region matchups with MIAC and WIAC teams because of some ugly losses in the NCAA Regionals recently. He seemed worried about a CSS getting a bid.

Let's assume the MIAC wanted 14 teams so they could do 2 divisions of 7. For the girls that would require 3 more schools to join, 4 for the guys. If CSS were to join that would make it 2 and 3 more needed. Who else would the MIAC go after? Some UMAC teams?
CSS wins about half the confs titles every year and none of the schools is known for academics, does it really make sense to add 3 below avg colleges just so you can have 2 divisions in some sports?

I do agree it makes little/no sense for CSS to leave the UMAC when they can win the conf in most sports and get auto bids. They're the premiere school in the conf, why leave.

Fan, you mentioned basketball, tennis, and softball for CSS. Heres are my thoughts on how they'd fare:
Mens Bball: Middle of the pack (they lost to HU, Car, Aug last year). The MIAC always has at least 1 team ranked in the top25 and occassionally have teams do very well (GAC made the championship game a few years ago)
Womens Bball: Lower half. Not one of CSS's best sports and the MIAC has gotten multiple at large bids to the national tournament the past few years.
Mens Tennis: Middle of the pack (this year they've beaten the bad MIAC teams and lost to the good teams). And lets not forget that GAC has won the conf (mens and womens) for the 25 years in a row, GACs mens program is the best DIII program in the nation.
Womens Tennis: Upper Middle of the pack.
Softball: Middle of the pack. USt, GAC, HU, SMU are pretty good at the top of the MIAC and CSS is 0-11 so far this year.

[BaseballFan]

Coach Baggs told his team earlier this year that they need to really do well in their in-region matchups with MIAC and WIAC teams because of some ugly losses in the NCAA Regionals recently. He seemed worried about a CSS getting a bid.

Let's assume the MIAC wanted 14 teams so they could do 2 divisions of 7. For the girls that would require 3 more schools to join, 4 for the guys. If CSS were to join that would make it 2 and 3 more needed. Who else would the MIAC go after? Some UMAC teams?
CSS wins about half the confs titles every year and none of the schools is known for academics, does it really make sense to add 3 below avg colleges just so you can have 2 divisions in some sports?

I do agree it makes little/no sense for CSS to leave the UMAC when they can win the conf in most sports and get auto bids. They're the premiere school in the conf, why leave.

Fan, you mentioned basketball, tennis, and softball for CSS. Heres are my thoughts on how they'd fare:
Mens Bball: Middle of the pack (they lost to HU, Car, Aug last year). The MIAC always has at least 1 team ranked in the top25 and occassionally have teams do very well (GAC made the championship game a few years ago)
Womens Bball: Lower half. Not one of CSS's best sports and the MIAC has gotten multiple at large bids to the national tournament the past few years.
Mens Tennis: Middle of the pack (this year they've beaten the bad MIAC teams and lost to the good teams). And lets not forget that GAC has won the conf (mens and womens) for the 25 years in a row, GACs mens program is the best DIII program in the nation.
Womens Tennis: Upper Middle of the pack.
Softball: Middle of the pack. USt, GAC, HU, SMU are pretty good at the top of the MIAC and CSS is 0-11 so far this year.

Coach Baggs is right on, in the last 3 years CSS has gone 2-6 (3 of those losses to the best pitcher in the country interesting).
2006: Beat STP, lost to UWW (Lost to Rheinard), lost to STP (Zimmerman. No one expected CSS to beat STP that year, except CSS. UWW were national champs, STP might of been the 2nd best team in the country that year
2007: Beat STP (Zimmerman), lose to Ripon, lose to St Thomas
2008: Lose to STP (Zimmerman), lose to Oshkosh
2-6 record in the playoffs probably does not make the NCAA happy so this could be the hardest year for CSS to get in but as long they go 3-1 against GA and Olaf they will probably make it and a win against ST. Thomas will probably make them a lock. I think it helps CSS that besides STT no one else in the MIAC is putting together a huge year so far.

Well Im not an expert on how many MIAC teams are in each sport but here is what Im getting at, for baseball they can make a north and south. 6 most northern school and 6 most southern schools. Play 21 conference games (15 games  in own division, 6 other division) Top 2 division teams move to playoffs. Just an example. Football would have 10 teams a nice even number.

Your examples of how CSS would do in the other sports is the reason why they wont leave the UMAC. Those teams might do fine in the UMAC but they would not touch the top 3 teams in the MIAC.