MBB: Landmark Conference

[Matt Letourneau]

Matt - I wouldn't agree with that sentiment at all... every other conference that runs weekend type schedules doesn't seem to have problems with die-hards or fans. And I have no idea how adding a game on Wednesday would make it better for fans from DC traveling to NYC area for a game - especially for casual fans. Plus the fact... you might as well be ready to play Friday/Saturday in post-season tournament action!

It wouldn't, but that's not the point.  I think in this conference, its pretty much a given that you aren't going to be able to do much to improve road travel for fans.  However, the current schedule is killing home attendance because people aren't going to consecutive games.  There is no question that weeknight games draw far better attendance on college campuses.  College kids are much more likely to go a game on a Wed or Thurs night than they are on a Fri or Sat when there are other options. 

I can't speak for every other conference--I can only say that what's going on right now in Landmark isn't working for anyone.

[gordonmann]

Very interesting conversation. A couple thoughts, for what they are worth.

First off, I doubt many conferences place a high priority on what is best for the fans when putting together a schedule.  My guess is that the order of importance is what's best for the players, then the administrators (who have to run the facilities), then the coaches, then the fans/media.  Maybe the order varies a little by conference but I doubt any of them draw enough fans to put them at the front of the line.
Second, the UAA plays all its games on the weekend but they couldn't do it any other way given their geographic issues.  The same is true of the SCAC.  They would keep that format if there were 400 fans or four fans per game.

But here is how the Landmark teams compare to two others with similar geographic spreads.

Landmark during the conference season
Weekend games (Friday, Saturday Sunday): 52, all conference
Weekday games (Monday - Thursday): 3 games, all non conference

NESCAC during conference season
Weekend games: 47, all conference
Weekday games: 20

Midwest conference during conference season
Weekend games: 51, all conference
Weekday games: 23, all conference

Lots of factors go into when a team schedules its games, but there are options to the Landmark's approach.  They could play most of their conference games on the weekend, but throw in some weekday games as well – the MWC model.  Merchant Marine to Catholic isn't doable on a week night, but Merchant Marine to Drew, Scranton or Moravian is.  Or they could play all their conference games on the weekend and find non-conference games to fill the week and avoid the five day layoff issue – the NESCAC model.  And the NESCAC teams find non-conference opponents despite the fact that some are very geographically isolated and their likely non-conference opponents are in the meat of their conference schedule at that time.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Ah Gordon - once again your background work does wonders. Thanks for finding the conference break-downs I hadn't gotten around to dealing with myself.

I would agree that fans come way behind when it comes to the best options for games. I would disagree with Matt, though, that weekday games are best for college students. I have found that weekend attendance at most places I have gone to has always been better then weekday attendance. And don't pull out attendance numbers, because 9 times out of 10 those are made up numbers... even at places that have people pay to come in, they don't actually track the attendance. The SID is just looking up and guesstimating.

The Landmark certainly needs to take some time and figure this out right. I like the idea of maybe a hybrid as long as games like Goucher/Catholic or Catholic/Juniata aren't always the ones on the weekday... get creative with the schedule.

One other note... I had heard something I thought about breaking up the men's and women's schedules... so Goucher/Catholic for women might happen on a night the men's teams are playing someone else. Not sure if I heard that right, but I remember shaking my head and thinking that was a horrible idea. I think it was a way to get around/away from this rotation of times thing we have going on now (seriously, couldn't we just switch the times from one day to the next, not weekend to weekend???).

One idea I have for weekend travel that does take into account splitting the men and women up is this: let's say its Goucher/Catholic men at home hosting Juniata/Susquehanna and the women from those respective schools are at Juniata/Susquehanna. It would allow for every weekend in the conference to be home games for each school and be just one game a night. It isn't perfect... but it would standardized the start times for everyone and not have one gender feel they are being considered inferior to the other.

And speaking of standardizing times... this is where the conference heads have to come down and make a decision as well. Coaches in this league (and others in this region) always have different opinions as to when they want to play their games and it ends up causing all kinds of different start times sometimes. The league just needs to say... here it is, the games will be played on these days, at these times, so that it is fair for every team in every situation. Again... gets back to my comment about the league heads have to just start making the decisions and the members have to follow along.

There is a reason conferences like the ODAC are strong in many ways, their leadership is strong and listens to its members but then makes decisions that everyone then follows.

[ronk]

One other note... I had heard something I thought about breaking up the One idea I have for weekend travel that does take into account splitting the men and women up is this: let's say its Goucher/Catholic men at home hosting Juniata/Susquehanna and the women from those respective schools are at Juniata/Susquehanna. It would allow for every weekend in the conference to be home games for each school and be just one game a night. It isn't perfect... but it would standardized the start times for everyone and not have one gender feel they are being considered inferior to the other.
just start making the decisions and the members have to follow along.

Then I, as a fan of both the men and women would have to choose between watching one in person or the other via videocast. Decisions, decisions.

Dmac, How does Goucher come to have different starting times from the other 3 Landmark sites on Saturday?

[NEPAFAN]

And don't pull out attendance numbers, because 9 times out of 10 those are made up numbers... even at places that have people pay to come in, they don't actually track the attendance. The SID is just looking up and guesstimating.

Always wondered how attendance was taken.....just a guesstimate huh?

[gordonmann]

That's often been my experience.  I've had fun with friendly SIDs by throwing out ridiculous estimates just to mess around with them.  Or asking if the estimates included the players, coaches and facility maintenance folks.  Or if you had to be in the gym, or in the building, to count toward the total.  What about all those people doing yoga on the third floor of the athletic center?

[Matt Letourneau]

Let me emphasize--I'm not just talking about "fans."  I would agree that at this level that comes last.  Though I don't think the entirety of the university should be triviliazed, either.  Getting greater university involvement in basketball programs--whether it through be fan attendance or other ways is important.

I'm talking about the quality of competition.  I think it suffers because its much harder to play back to back games on the road, so you don't neccessarily get an accurate assessment of how good the teams are, especially in that second game.  Also, the preparation for those games isn't as good.  Yes, I know that teams prepare for both games all week, but human nature is what it is and its hard to prepare for a second opponent until you get past the first.

As far as attendance, well, I'm only an expert when it comes to Catholic U basketball, and I can tell you unequivocally that attendance was/is higher for weekday games, particularly conference games.  The difference is always the students--students showed up for Wednesday or Thursday night games, but not for Friday or Saturday night. 

Obviously there are some pairings that won't work in this league for a weeknight, but there has to be a way to do some kind of hybrid to have a more balanced scheduled that is better for competition.  And if it is more fan friendly, all the better.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

I'm talking about the quality of competition.  I think it suffers because its much harder to play back to back games on the road, so you don't neccessarily get an accurate assessment of how good the teams are, especially in that second game.  Also, the preparation for those games isn't as good.  Yes, I know that teams prepare for both games all week, but human nature is what it is and its hard to prepare for a second opponent until you get past the first.

But Matt... this should give teams in the Landmark a leg up for NCAA tournament play! They play back-to-back three weekends in a row for those who make it to the final four. If you are a good enough team and can make a run in a tournament, playing back-to-back games on the weekend better be something you are ready to do. That shouldn't be an excuse or a reason not to play weekend games. If you can't handle this format, you probably aren't good enough to do anything in the post-season, and that says more to me of a program then anything else.

[Matt Letourneau]

I'm willing to bet that empircally your argument is not proven out.  I bet teams that don't play that format do just as well in the NCAA tournament than teams that don't.  In fact, they may do better, because I believe this current format is more likely to lead to skewed results, where the most talented teams don't always end up with the top seeds and therefore don't have home court for the playoffs (though I will concede I don't believe that has happened in Landmark so far.)

In any case, I don't recall lack of back to back games being a problem for Catholic in 2001, or York in their deep tournament run a few years ago.  Besides which, in a hybrid format, teams would still play some back to back games, and virtually every team particpates in at least one regular season tournament to prepare for that type of situation.

[gordonmann]

Matt:

You're correct that the Friday-Saturday schedule doesn't have a strong correlation with tournament success.  The NESCAC has a Friday/Saturday format and has done well in the tournament.  But so has the UAA (Friday-Sundays), ODAC (Wednesday/Saturday), CCIW (Wednesday/Saturday) and WIAC (Wednesday/Saturday).  At the other end of the spectrum, the Landmark has a Friday/Saturday format and has done very little in the NCAA tournament since the League's inception.

Intuitively, Dave's theory that playing Friday/Saturday games during the season will get you ready for the Friday/Saturday NCAA tournament pace makes sense.  But recent history doesn't reflect that.  Besides,  the Landmark format doesn't perfectly mirror the NCAA tournament format anyway.  The Landmark teams play two games at different sites in two days, creating additional travel on Friday night/Saturday morning.  The NCAA participants play both games at the same site, at least one of which is guaranteed to be a neutral contest.

[Ralph Turner]

Teams from the ASC, the SCAC and the UAA probably appreciate no onerous travel on the off-day of  their Thursday-Saturday formats.

[ronk]

 Besides,  the Landmark format doesn't perfectly mirror the NCAA tournament format anyway.  The Landmark teams play two games at different sites in two days, creating additional travel on Friday night/Saturday morning.  The NCAA participants play both games at the same site, at least one of which is guaranteed to be a neutral contest.

Gordon,
  Good points.

[Dave 'd-mac' McHugh]

Last night on Hoopsville, we chatted to Scranton Coach Carl Danzig and you know I had to ask him about this scheduling thing.

Here is the archive: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/12139251. We talk to Coach Danzig in the first 30 minutes of the show.

Enjoy.

[NEPAFAN]

Last night on Hoopsville, we chatted to Scranton Coach Carl Danzig and you know I had to ask him about this scheduling thing.

Here is the archive: http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/12139251. We talk to Coach Danzig in the first 30 minutes of the show.

Enjoy.

Thanks Dave. It sounds like Carl is not a fan of the Weekend schedule and the league is looking into other options for next year.  Echoed some sentiments on here that the athletes aren't the biggest fans of the set up as it is now.

I would argue that the fan experience and the athlete's experience are somewhat related. What kid wants to play in front of 55 people? You make the games more fan friendly you make it a better experience for the kids on the floor.


Big weekend for Scranton, here is hoping the get 2 on the road!

[Matt Letourneau]

Good interview with Danzig--some interesting stuff on there.

If the coach of the team that's had the most success under this format is so unequivocally opposed to it, that says a lot.  My impression is that nobody on the basketball side of the league is happy with this.

And I think NEPAFAN is exactly right--you go on a big weekend trip, drive a couple of hours and its basically the 10 guys on the floor, some guys on the bench and 12 people in the stands.   What kind of fun is that?